Ole MIss College of the Arts?--discussion

Date: Apr 3, 2004

Ole MIss College of the Arts?--discussion

Date: Apr 3, 2004

Look, Ole Miss has been "doing USM one better" for decades, at least. USM has one of the oldest Honors Colleges in the nation...been around since the 60s. But, in the late 90s, Ole Miss got a $5 million endowment from the Barksdales, and now have a much bigger and probably more nationally-known Honors College than us. They also have started an MFA in Creative Writing, whereas USM's Center for Writers has been around (and in the top 10 nationally) since the 70s. Granted, USM does have a PhD in Creative Writing, but it should also have the MFA track, too.

I'm not surprised that Ole Miss would now want a College of the Arts. I remember when I used to recruit for USM (back in the late 90s), we used to say that USM had one of the few College of the Arts where all 4 disciplines (Music, Visual Arts, Theater & Dance) were fully accredited. This was a flagship program under the Lucas administration that has been completely trashed under Thames. He should be ashamed of himself.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

If that is so, I would like to see proof.

At any rate, UM's faculty senate joined other faculty senates in the state by voting for the right to criticize administration, which is a supportive action in favor of USM's faculty.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

I don't mean to stir the pot here and yes, Ole Miss did belatedly pass a resolution of some sorts supporting academic freedom.

I thank them for that. They see that once this sort of from the top termination stands by the IHL board, then "they" could be next, though it would be hard to envision such action under Khyat. He is too smart.

I like FS would like a discussion here.

Is this rumor true? Is Ole Miss going to the IHL in the future for a full blown College of the Arts?

Someone from the arts area look into this and report back.

Again, I do not mean to discredit or demean Ole Miss in any way, since in a sense, we are "all in this mess together" and tenure destroyed at one place under the same IHL board is tenure destroyed elsewhere.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

what is MFA?

Date: Apr 3, 2004

RE: Ole MIss College of the Arts?--discussion

Date: Apr 3, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"technically, a PHD and MFA in creative writing are both considered the "terminal degree" in the area. Don't need both. Ironically, an MA in creative writing is not considered the terminal degree. "

Well, technically, you don't "need both" an MA in English and a PhD in English, but you have to pass through the milestone of the MA to get to the PhD. Technically. :rollseyes:

A PhD is mandatory if you plan to teach and be tenured at the university level.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

in the eyes of accrediting agencies a person can teach in graduate programs with an MFA or a PHD. MFA=PHD. if one only has an MA, they must get the PHD. this only applies to those areas (mostly the arts) who can potentially offer both.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

let me add to my last post. with an MFA you can be tenured as well. i'm not that naive.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

You can't blame Ole Miss for going after whatever it can get. It's their job to build up their own programs, not to protect other schools from unfair funding practices on the part of the state.

Better to work to change to the system that makes these things possible.

Ole Miss has always had wealthier alumni due to having both the law school and the medical school.

But South Mississippi is now the fastest growing part of the state. We need a College Board that represents this fact.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

Ole Miss also has a brand new ten million dollar performing arts hall.

And I have recently heard the music department at USM is forming a committee to examine which parts of their program to cut.

My question would be, is Ole Miss adding arts faculty?

Date: Apr 3, 2004

Maybe it is just that I hurriedly read through this thread, but I think we need to clarify that Liberal Arts and Performing Arts, and I think even Fine Arts, became a single college during Thames' "restructuring" of the colleges at USM.

In the past, they were distinct entities with distinct curricula. When we are talking about Ole Miss wanting to become the Arts college in the state, are we saying that they want to surpass USM in Liberal Arts, Fine Arts, or Performing Arts?

Appreciate your comments.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

Oh, this would imply surpassing in the "fine arts."

This is my take.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Goliath
"Oh, this would imply surpassing in the "fine arts." This is my take."

Thanks for clarifying, Goliath...confusion on my part...others probably understood.

I am updating the website while I am checking in on messages here and in email, so please forgive any shallowness I have demonstrated in this discussion.

Date: Apr 3, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"technically, a PHD and MFA in creative writing are both considered the "terminal degree" in the area. Don't need both. Ironically, an MA in creative writing is not considered the terminal degree. "

Yes and no. They are both considered terminal degrees, yet some folks like to get all...MA, MFA and PhD. It's because getting an MFA in art or writing is like going to a conservatory for a music degree...you do waaay more writing than anything else (lit classes, critical theory, etc.). I personally think it would be to our benefit to have all of these degree tracks available at USM...it would give different choices to different kinds of students.

Oh, and you can get tenured with just an MA. There are at least 2 professors in English who have done this (the Barthelme brothers). Tenure has more to do with your publication record (at least in the Liberal Arts) than it does with your terminal degree.

Date: Apr 4, 2004

RE the MFA:

It is a terminal degree that usually takes at east 3 years of formal study. That means no Ph.D follows -- the usual assumption for an MA. It is getting rarer and rarer to get tenure with an MA these days -- the expectation is that the holder will go on to get a Ph.D as the MA is considered a "stepping stone" degree.

The course of study is intensively in your area: if your MFA is in wiritng, you will write, if in painting, you will paint. The important thing is that it is an applied degree for artists, rather than for scholars.

The picture at UM is confused. They just eliminated their MFA Theatre but are strengthening their BFA Program. Their Dance program isn't nearly as visible or strong as USM's I believe. On the other hand, it seems as though their Music, Opera and Art Programs seem to get a lot of support and attention. And certainly there seems to be a sense that Oxford is the "cultural center" of the state. And there is way more money there.

One thing that has troubled me since coming to USM is that there seems to be an "anywhere but Southern Miss" attitude when it comes to the arts. You would think that it would be logical to put the new high school of the arts near the flagship arts program in the state, but it ended up in Bell Haven. Ther are plenty of examples of this and i've only been in the state since 98.

Nevertheless I agree -- this part of the state is where the growth is and arts and cultural spending are likely to go up here. We are likely to have to do it on our own for the forseeable future, however.

Date: Apr 4, 2004

USM has always been the "redneck stepchild" of higher education in this state...at least in the eyes of the people who control the funding.

It all goes back to the cultural divide between North Mississippi and South Mississippi.

But we are no longer the poor part of the state. Some people are having great difficulty accepting this.

Date: Apr 4, 2004

I think more and more people are getting MFAs and Ph.D.s. It's a great combination, especially considering that most creative folks will end up being generalists once they actually hit the job market.

Date: Apr 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: present professor
" You would think that it would be logical to put the new high school of the arts near the flagship arts program in the state, but it ended up in Bell Haven. ."

Just a quick edit...it's in Brookhaven, not Belhaven.

Date: Apr 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
" Just a quick edit...it's in Brookhaven, not Belhaven."

yep . . . darned if I shouldn't have gotten that one.

Aghast I am not sure I agree w/you about the MFA/Ph.D thing. There are some -- a very few. But the Ph.D is a scholar's degree -- you are expected to publish. Most artist/teachers I know want to teach and make work. I think perhaps the exception might be music. But my department there are 12 of us and all of us have MFA's . . . (guess that's outing myself somewhat . . .!)

Anway it is really nice to see a discussion here -- we keep having to explain to the university administration that the MFA is terminal and that it is NOT a "masters" degree.

Date: Apr 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: present professor
" There are some -- a very few. But the Ph.D is a scholar's degree -- you are expected to publish. Most artist/teachers I know want to teach and make work. I think perhaps the exception might be music. But my department there are 12 of us and all of us have MFA's . . . (guess that's outing myself somewhat . . .!) Anway it is really nice to see a discussion here -- we keep having to explain to the university administration that the MFA is terminal and that it is NOT a "masters" degree. "

Yes, Present Professor, you are very right in asserting that the MFA is a terminal degree. A lot of people confuse it with an MA which it is not! I think an MFA is seen differently depending on which area you are in. In Visual Arts, the MFA is respected more as a terminal degree. In Creative Writing, the MFA is often seen as time to "hone your craft" on the way to the PhD. And then there are some who will stop at the MFA (those who don't want to go on to become scholars, etc.). That is my rationale for wanting an MFA in Creative Writing along with the PhD...although they are both terminal degrees, they offer different tracks for different students.

Date: Apr 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: present professor
" yep . . . darned if I shouldn't have gotten that one. Aghast I am not sure I agree w/you about the MFA/Ph.D thing. There are some -- a very few. But the Ph.D is a scholar's degree -- you are expected to publish. Most artist/teachers I know want to teach and make work. I think perhaps the exception might be music. But my department there are 12 of us and all of us have MFA's . . . (guess that's outing myself somewhat . . .!) Anway it is really nice to see a discussion here -- we keep having to explain to the university administration that the MFA is terminal and that it is NOT a "masters" degree. "

I should have qualified that by saying there are more and more writers going for both the MFA and Ph.D. I understand that it is different for artists and musicians.

Creative writers are the ultimate generalists. As a whole, they end up teaching very few "studio" courses, and compete professionally as both artists and scholars.

Either that or they are just so obsessive that one terminal degree is not enough.

Date: Apr 4, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: aghast
""

Thanks aghast. I also had the feeling after my last entry that probably the differences in disciplines could offer an explanation for your view of the MFA--Ph.D .

Are you saying there isn't an MFA here in creative writing? I didn't realize that . . . but it probably makes sense if the writing program evolved from a strictly literature program. I don't know much about that. Does seem a little odd. On the other hand would I be right in guessing that UM has one?

Date: Apr 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: present professor
" Thanks aghast. I also had the feeling after my last entry that probably the differences in disciplines could offer an explanation for your view of the MFA--Ph.D . Are you saying there isn't an MFA here in creative writing? I didn't realize that . . . but it probably makes sense if the writing program evolved from a strictly literature program. I don't know much about that. Does seem a little odd. On the other hand would I be right in guessing that UM has one? "

No, USM does not have an MFA in creative writing. Yes, UM does.

USM was one of the first schools to offer a Ph.D. in cw. It should have an MFA, but...shrug...

Date: Apr 5, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: aghast
""

damn!