news from today's faculty senate meeting

Date: Apr 16, 2004

news from today's faculty senate meeting

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

I cannot believe that Shelby is doing away with the Forum. That was the highlight of my undergraduate years at USM. I learned SO MUCH about SO MANY disciplines. I heard many INTERNATIONALLY renown personalities speak. I cannot tell you how the Forum expanded my worldview.

The forum was an excellent PR tool for USM. People from all over the state came to hear famous speakers.

Is there anything we can do?

I am glad that Dr. Doty spoke up for the faculty senate! Thank you, Dr. Doty!

Does anyone feel that Shelby just keeps digging that hole deeper?

Date: Apr 16, 2004

Depressing story about Shelby:

The young lady that helps in my daughter's Sunday school class was at a banquet, sitting next to Shelby Thames. During the dinner conversation he asked her what her major is, and she replied "Art." Then he retorted, "Oh, you're one of the ones 'bringing us down'." This is a true story (she was mortified to have a University Prez say that to her).

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: babbs
"Depressing story about Shelby: The young lady that helps in my daughter's Sunday school class was at a banquet, sitting next to Shelby Thames. During the dinner conversation he asked her what her major is, and she replied "Art." Then he retorted, "Oh, you're one of the ones 'bringing us down'." This is a true story (she was mortified to have a University Prez say that to her). "

What a callous b@st@rd he is. If there is such a thing as karmic justice...

Date: Apr 16, 2004

Babbs:

I must chime in here.

Are you swearing on a Bible that USM's president, Dr. Shelby F. Thames told that young USM STUDENT that?

Date: Apr 16, 2004

Goliath:

That story came straight from the mouth of the young woman's mother who heard it.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

Dean Pud has been missing in action since the terminations, but who's surprised? I'm sure he's heard the rumors that he's next to go, whether Shelby stays or leaves. As far as I can tell, he's been little more than an occasional signature (occasional: he notoriously doesn't like putting anything on paper) and messenger boy for Thames & Co. Maybe he's good at that. That would be one thing he's good at: can anybody identify anything else he can do? Don't bother to say he's good at kissing up: we take that for granted. He takes for granted that kissing up will save him. Is he ever in for a surprise.

quote:

Originally posted by: babbs
"Today the FACSEN voted 31 to 11 in support of the ad hoc committee's rec to prohibit Dvorak from participating from tenure decisions in the future. They also found out that the University Forum --- the public events held on Tuesday nights in Bennett Auditorium like the ones recently visited Nadine Strossen and Andrew Sullivan ---- are no more. Word is that several of the COST students didn't really like the forums and convinced Thames to discontinue them. USM parking decals are increasing in price from $25 (I think is the current price) to $40 for next year. A story was discussed that at a recent cabinet meeting Jack Hanbury told Shelby to just go ahead and disband the FACSEN, but that Harold Doty argued against doing it, and won the argument at least for the moment. Someone later accosted Elliott Pood in the lobby of the LAB for not helping Doty (apparently Pood was silent), and his squirmed and got all flustered and ask the faculty member how they knew about the story. "

Date: Apr 16, 2004

Mama needs to write a letter to the HA and a letter to IHL and a letter to Shelby himself. It's the people in the community who have the power - - -

Date: Apr 16, 2004

I come and go here.

But, I can say this, of all the new Deans, this Pood guy never gets any positive on this board.

None.

I have noticed this. He seems to be a "yes" man.

That seems odd to me since he is the "arts and letters" dean, or the fine arts/liberal arts dean.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by:
"I cannot believe that Shelby is doing away with the Forum. That was the highlight of my undergraduate years at USM. I learned SO MUCH about SO MANY disciplines. I heard many INTERNATIONALLY renown personalities speak. I cannot tell you how the Forum expanded my worldview. The forum was an excellent PR tool for USM. People from all over the state came to hear famous speakers. Is there anything we can do? I am glad that Dr. Doty spoke up for the faculty senate! Thank you, Dr. Doty! Does anyone feel that Shelby just keeps digging that hole deeper?"

We -let him do it - under protest of course, but let him do away with it - more exposure, more media attention -- let him disband Faculty Senate -- folks, his ignorance could be our bliss. Never in my wildest dreams did I ever think he'd go after people as academically (and morally, ethically . . .) respected as Frank and Gary.

This next comment belongs on another thread, but I'm trying to condense my 2 cents worth -- isn't that Dean's -- of whatever they tried to submerge Liberal Arts and Arts (and various other depts. in that divide and conquer --- scheme) claim to fame that he's some expert in fireworks (for lack of a more academic term)?

Date: Apr 16, 2004

I see that Hanbury continues to give the sage advice he is so well known for. This tops the drug and alcohol policy.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Goliath
"I come and go here.

But, I can say this, of all the new Deans, this Pood guy never gets any positive on this board.

None.

I have noticed this. He seems to be a "yes" man.

That seems odd to me since he is the "arts and letters" dean, or the fine arts/liberal arts dean.
"

He gets all the praise he deserves.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by:
"I cannot believe that Shelby is doing away with the Forum. That was the highlight of my undergraduate years at USM. I learned SO MUCH about SO MANY disciplines. I heard many INTERNATIONALLY renown personalities speak. I cannot tell you how the Forum expanded my worldview. The forum was an excellent PR tool for USM. People from all over the state came to hear famous speakers. Is there anything we can do? I am glad that Dr. Doty spoke up for the faculty senate! Thank you, Dr. Doty! Does anyone feel that Shelby just keeps digging that hole deeper?"

Actually, a slight correction -- according to Senate sources today, it was Dr. Panten who cut down the forum. I think the reasons are probably very unclear and mixed: obviously there isn't much money for them and the administration isn't likely to give any more. I suspect he felt he could use his limited resouces better.

But I certainly liked the forums -- they are one of the things a university with "world class" pretensions ought to have.

So write him!

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: educator
"
This next comment belongs on another thread, but I'm trying to condense my 2 cents worth -- isn't that Dean's -- of whatever they tried to submerge Liberal Arts and Arts (and various other depts. in that divide and conquer --- scheme) claim to fame that he's some expert in fireworks (for lack of a more academic term)?"

Yes, he's an expert in blowing things up, but for movies. I don't think he expected to get a ring-side seat for the explosion of USM.

His academic area is supposedly "conflict management"--perhaps he's madly taking notes, so he can get stacks of publications out of this. He's going to need something to fall back on.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: foot soldier
" Yes, he's an expert in blowing things up, but for movies. I don't think he expected to get a ring-side seat for the explosion of USM. His academic area is supposedly "conflict management"--perhaps he's madly taking notes, so he can get stacks of publications out of this. He's going to need something to fall back on."

Best laugh I've had in awhile. Thanks.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: present professor
" Actually, a slight correction -- according to Senate sources today, it was Dr. Panten who cut down the forum. I think the reasons are probably very unclear and mixed: obviously there isn't much money for them and the administration isn't likely to give any more. I suspect he felt he could use his limited resouces better. But I certainly liked the forums -- they are one of the things a university with "world class" pretensions ought to have. So write him!"

Either way (Thames or Panton cutting the Forum), this is a sad day for USM. The University Forum has been going on, in one form or another, since at least the late 70s/early 80s. It's an important part of the Honors College and an important part of university life. I was an Honors student at USM and also worked in the Honors College, and it kills me to see this program die. It did cost $$ to run, but I always thought it brought so much more value to the university--people like Susan Sontag, James Baldwin, E. O. Wilson, Brian Greene, Wynton Marsalis, Gloria Steinam...these are big names in their fields! To lose this valuable program is one more sad bit of evidence that USM is losing its uniqueness as a place of learning...this makes me sad beyond belief. An end of an era.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

Since he has been the Dean, I have neither seen nor spoken to him very often. I don't know much about him at all. But I can say one thing for Dean Pood (or his staff). Since March 5, they have never requested or ordered that the CSUSM students remove flyers or the information table from the LAB lobby, even when other groups had reserved space with his office (which is the proper procedure) for lobby tableing. I don't know that this has been his decision, but it has been up him or up to somebody who works direclty under him. They could have removed us at any moment with a legitimate excuse on any day that groups or organizations had reserved the space.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
"Either way (Thames or Panton cutting the Forum), this is a sad day for USM. The University Forum has been going on, in one form or another, since at least the late 70s/early 80s. . . . To lose this valuable program is one more sad bit of evidence that USM is losing its uniqueness as a place of learning...this makes me sad beyond belief. An end of an era. "

WORLD-CLASS universities have big name speakers. Heck, small colleges have big name speakers. USM could do better if the administration had some vision.

Can anyone explain Panten's (Panton's?) take on this? Is he a Shelbyite?

Date: Apr 16, 2004

I don't know Dr Panton well, but I can ASSURE you he is not a member of Shelby & Friends, at least not as of last Spring...I couldn't pin down for you 100% where his loyalty/position is, but lets make sure he doesn't get pinned for one of SFT's schemes.

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

Could the fact the the president of the national AAUP (edit: make that ACLU--thanks, Truth) spoke at the most recent forum, and also spoke (very critically of Thames) at the protest before the forum, have anything to do with the decision to end forums?

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by:
"Could the fact the the president of the national AAUP spoke at the most recent forum, and also spoke (very critically of Thames) at the protest before the forum, have anything to do with the decision to end forums?"

You mean ACLU, right? Just checking...it's late!

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: indy eagle
"I don't know Dr Panton well, but I can ASSURE you he is not a member of Shelby & Friends, at least not as of last Spring...I couldn't pin down for you 100% where his loyalty/position is, but lets make sure he doesn't get pinned for one of SFT's schemes."

I don't know about this. He's now listed with all of ST's other buds on the online Ph.D. in International Development faculty webpage. Dvorak, Malone, and Hudson are there....as is the mysterious Dr. Hadden (M.D.). So Panton is definitely in with the economic development crew.

Check out http://www.usm.edu/idv/pages/fac_staff.html

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
"You mean ACLU, right? Just checking...it's late! "

Yes, sorry. ACLU. It is late! Need

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: indy eagle
"I don't know Dr Panton well, but I can ASSURE you he is not a member of Shelby & Friends, at least not as of last Spring...I couldn't pin down for you 100% where his loyalty/position is, but lets make sure he doesn't get pinned for one of SFT's schemes."

Panton is a good guy, but he knows not to make waves if he wants to keep his job. He's also very closely associated with Tim Hudson (who got him to USM). Who knows what sort of deals are being made behind the scenes here? It's hard to trust anyone there these days (I'm becoming such a pessimist, of late!).

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
"Panton is a good guy, but he knows not to make waves if he wants to keep his job. He's also very closely associated with Tim Hudson (who got him to USM). Who knows what sort of deals are being made behind the scenes here? It's hard to trust anyone there these days (I'm becoming such a pessimist, of late!)."

I saw Maureen Ryan last week. I think it is disgraceful the way she was pulled from honors, put in the dome, and then "demoted" to teaching. She led a stellar Honors program.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by:
"I cannot believe that Shelby is doing away with the Forum. That was the highlight of my undergraduate years at USM. I learned SO MUCH about SO MANY disciplines. I heard many INTERNATIONALLY renown personalities speak. I cannot tell you how the Forum expanded my worldview. The forum was an excellent PR tool for USM. People from all over the state came to hear famous speakers. Is there anything we can do? I am glad that Dr. Doty spoke up for the faculty senate! Thank you, Dr. Doty! Does anyone feel that Shelby just keeps digging that hole deeper?"

Why let the truth get in the way of another bash Thames moment from you? Your statements might carry a little more credence if you checked the facts out before commenting.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Hellgirl
"Since he has been the Dean, I have neither seen nor spoken to him very often. I don't know much about him at all. But I can say one thing for Dean Pood (or his staff). Since March 5, they have never requested or ordered that the CSUSM students remove flyers or the information table from the LAB lobby, even when other groups had reserved space with his office (which is the proper procedure) for lobby tableing. I don't know that this has been his decision, but it has been up him or up to somebody who works direclty under him. They could have removed us at any moment with a legitimate excuse on any day that groups or organizations had reserved the space."

Dr. Pood is a good guy caught in a very tough situation. Some of the posters on this board should try walking in his shoes before blasting him.

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: GIGO
"Dr. Pood is a good guy caught in a very tough situation. Some of the posters on this board should try walking in his shoes before blasting him."

Really? Where was Elliott at about 9:00 AM on March 5?

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: dr. know
....as is the mysterious Dr. Hadden (M.D.). <snip>

Check out http://www.usm.edu/idv/pages/fac_staff.html"

Mysterious indeed. I found this CV verrry interesting. Long ago and far away, I worked at a medical school and looked at lots of doctor's CVs. One thing I saw at once, he lists being a medical consultant for a state agency in MN for some years. I bet he worked for the state's disability determination office, which makes medical decisions on Social Security claims. Not really practicing medicine. It's just an odd CV for an obviously smart person (Woodberry Forrest School, Vanderbilt) No PhD though, and not much medicine, and no publications to speak of. How did he get to be a professor?

Date: Apr 16, 2004

What facts are you talking about, Gigo? Do you know something we don't know?

As we've said MANY times before, this board is exactly for this purpose...commenting on fast-breaking stories, rumors, etc. You'll find both facts and speculations here (usually marked as such). For the most part, we're a good bunch of critical thinkers, so we can usually tell the difference and roll with those punches. If you cannot, I suggest that you move along to another message board...

unless you are the current incarnation of our lone board TROLL, then I suggest you take a long, flying leap off a very short pier!

Truth

Date: Apr 16, 2004

RE: RE: RE: news from today's faculty senate meeti

Date: Apr 16, 2004

RE: RE: RE: RE: news from today's faculty senate meeting

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: GIGO
"Thanks for the explanation of the board. I didn't realize you could post anything on here whether truthful or not. I'll try and remember that when reading the posts."

If you haven't already, read the posts at the top of the message board from Fire Shelby. They will explain it all.

Trust me, if someone posts something here as "fact" and doesn't provide back-up documentation, others will ask for verification. I hope to get verification soon from some source about the termination of the University Forum program, though I wish it weren't true.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

GIGO, my impression is that you are young and still hopeful. Many of us on this board are old and cynical, and a little snappish. Some of the posters have worked very, very hard to get people to see what is happening at USM. They are tired and grouchy, but not dishonest. (Although I don't mean that Truth is old and cynical, but it is late at night after a hard week.) If you read through the old threads you'll find countless instances of people correcting themselves.

Stay hopeful, and give us old fogies a break.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: former-staffer
" (Although I don't mean that Truth is old and cynical, but it is late at night after a hard week.)."

I'm feeling pretty old and cynical tonight, Former Staffer! Didn't mean to be snappish, just tired of the trolls and didn't know if Gigo was one or not. My apologies (where's that icon?)

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: former-staffer
"GIGO, my impression is that you are young and still hopeful. Many of us on this board are old and cynical, and a little snappish. Some of the posters have worked very, very hard to get people to see what is happening at USM. They are tired and grouchy, but not dishonest. (Although I don't mean that Truth is old and cynical, but it is late at night after a hard week.) If you read through the old threads you'll find countless instances of people correcting themselves. Stay hopeful, and give us old fogies a break."

Actually, the people who post here are diverse in ages/backgrounds and dispositions.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
"I'm feeling pretty old and cynical tonight, Former Staffer! Didn't mean to be snappish, just tired of the trolls and didn't know if Gigo was one or not. My apologies (where's that icon?)"

I think he/she's a student, or a very young employee. But you and FS have earned the right to be as snappish as you wish! I will hold down the fort in the old and cynical department!

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

POSTED BY DR. KNOW

Re: Hadden

quote:
Originally posted by: former-staffer
"...Not really practicing medicine. It's just an odd CV for an obviously smart person (Woodberry Forrest School, Vanderbilt) No PhD though, and not much medicine, and no publications to speak of. How did he get to be a professor? "

That's the big question, and I don't know ANYONE that knows for sure. Because of the current climate at USM, most people suspect the worst...it's pure cronyism. Notably, by virtue of being listed on that Ph.D. webpage, he must have graduate faculty status, as well. How'd THAT happen? Like you said...he's got no pubs, etc.

Date: Apr 16, 2004

ooh...sorry about the weird formatting above.

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: dr. know
"ooh...sorry about the weird formatting above."

Dr. Know, I tried to fix the crazy formatting in your post above, and the message board then changed me to author. I edited in that you authored that question.

The message board has been a little glitchy the past couple of days. I hope everyone will bear with it. I promise that it has nothing to do with iTech *wink*

Date: Apr 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by:
"That's the big question, and I don't know ANYONE that knows for sure. Because of the current climate at USM, most people suspect the worst...it's pure cronyism. Notably, by virtue of being listed on that Ph.D. webpage, he must have graduate faculty status, as well. How'd THAT happen? Like you said...he's got no pubs, etc. "

Just because someone is listed on a webpage doesn't mean approval for graduate status has been awarded. If he has received graduate faculty status, it would be reported in the minutes of the Graduate Council.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

He's probably afraid of students and faculty too, now.

quote:

Originally posted by: Hellgirl
"Since he has been the Dean, I have neither seen nor spoken to him very often. I don't know much about him at all. But I can say one thing for Dean Pood (or his staff). Since March 5, they have never requested or ordered that the CSUSM students remove flyers or the information table from the LAB lobby, even when other groups had reserved space with his office (which is the proper procedure) for lobby tableing. I don't know that this has been his decision, but it has been up him or up to somebody who works direclty under him. They could have removed us at any moment with a legitimate excuse on any day that groups or organizations had reserved the space."

Date: Apr 17, 2004

Sorry. I should have said that Dean Pud has been missing in INaction.

quote:

Originally posted by: East R. Buni
""

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: East R. Buni
""

LOL! Good one.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

Ah the rush to link every whacko thing to something - hasn't rained recently, must be the fact we have Kerrey as the candidate for the Presidency - god is punishing us and she is ****ed.

Anyone think about asking Andy W. who was there when decision was made along with Ken P. who is still there. Sorry this one is Shelbyless, but CoST was involved.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: someone
"Ah the rush to link every whacko thing to something - hasn't rained recently, must be the fact we have Kerrey as the candidate for the Presidency - god is punishing us and she is ****ed. Anyone think about asking Andy W. who was there when decision was made along with Ken P. who is still there. Sorry this one is Shelbyless, but CoST was involved."

Who is the current director of University Forum? When I left it was Amy Chasteen-Miller, but I'm pretty sure she stepped down. Is it Andy Weist?

Date: Apr 17, 2004

right on your last question

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: someone
"Ah the rush to link every whacko thing to something - hasn't rained recently, must be the fact we have Kerrey as the candidate for the Presidency - god is punishing us and she is ****ed. Anyone think about asking Andy W. who was there when decision was made along with Ken P. who is still there. Sorry this one is Shelbyless, but CoST was involved."

I am not so sure that the decision was "shelbyless." I have heard that he has a big hand in the dismantling of the Honors College--a BIG hand.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

What???

The Honors College is being dismantled?

Please elaborate

Date: Apr 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: someone
"Ah the rush to link every whacko thing to something - hasn't rained recently, must be the fact we have Kerrey as the candidate for the Presidency - god is punishing us and she is ****ed. Anyone think about asking Andy W. who was there when decision was made along with Ken P. who is still there. Sorry this one is Shelbyless, but CoST was involved."

I think that would have happened eventually. Remember this came up in FacSen on Friday (a meeting which finished around 5 pm) and was widely discussed but only in a sharing information sense. Amy Chasteen Miller was present, as were a number of other folks close to the program who shared the information. Please check back up at the top to see how this subject entered this thread through a reporting of Faculty Senate discussions. The writer reporting the FS meeting was correct in all except in attributing the cut to Shelby -- the correction that it was Dr. P. was made by several people who seemed to be close to the decision. Andy wasn't there and none of the senators felt like disturbing him on a weekend, I'm sure.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

Ah conspiracies are needed, know Ken P. well also know that the Honors college was not dismantled, just brought into the 21st century by the faculty involved. Perhaps we should state that 600 marines were killed in Kosvo this morning and it was shelby's fault. Please base things on facts, honors college not disbanded or cut back.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

i've said this on other threads. Ole Miss is eating us alive in the honors area. ken panton has his hands full.

I heard an interesting statistic--in the past 50% of honors students leave the honors program (not the university) after their first year. i have heard recruiters say that certain things go on in the honors program that discourage students from applying. i think ken knows these issues and is trying to address them.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

Thanks Iddad. I trust you know what you are talking about since you are obviously a prof out at USM in a quantitative area.

I had a hard time believing the HC could be done away with.

I agree 100% on Ole Miss.

It is on this board a while back that Ole Miss is planning to ask the IHL board to approve a "College of the Arts", but that is just rumor as far as I know but I hear it too much.

But, if one reads Roy Klumb and looks at some others on the board (Ross) and some of the new appointees, this mess is not really about USM or Glamser/Stringer...............USM is just the springboard. Klum has come out of the closet and just put it right in print, that tenure for all state universities is up for grabs and if the board has their way, it will be on the chopping block.

Then, where is Ole Miss? I asked a friend in Arizona two days ago how many people, educated folks, in Arizona know the difference between Ole Miss and Southern Miss, or where they are located.

She said two, she and her boyfriend.

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"i've said this on other threads. Ole Miss is eating us alive in the honors area. ken panton has his hands full. I heard an interesting statistic--in the past 50% of honors students leave the honors program (not the university) after their first year. i have heard recruiters say that certain things go on in the honors program that discourage students from applying. i think ken knows these issues and is trying to address them."

Ok, I am going to chime in with facts from MY experiences. I came to USM as an undergraduate because of the Honors College. Being raised in Mississippi for most of my life, let me tell you that it was the most valuable experience of my academic career, because it greatly expanded my worldview beyond the narrow visions one develops growing up in Mississippi.

If USM had not had an Honors College, I would have attended an out-of-state university, because I had MANY offers and could have attended other universities on really good scholarships.

But I decided to attend USM because of the Honors College. I have no regrets about my decision. When I graduated from the HC, the program was nationally esteemed.

The retention rate under Maureen Ryan was much higher. Perhaps the changes that have been made since Shelby became president are to blame for the depressing retention rate.

Doing away with the forum is the worst thing that could happen to the Honors program. I also heard that coloquium is in danger--and that a decision about this came directly from Shelby.

At any rate, the Honors College was a fantastic experience for me when I was an undergrad involved in the program. It saddens me to see it damaged.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

Right on FS. According to Iddad, nothing is SFT's fault. Sure people are leaving, but it stems from other factors not SFT. Yes, true freshmen are coming to USM anymore, but that's because of things Khayat is doing up in Oxford. Let's never post a story or anecdote about SFT someone has heard. Things were bad at USM long before SFT took over. (Iddad). Let's be careful on this board to also present the arguments giving SFT the benefit of the doubt.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

i love the honors program. I one child in it. she could have attended many institutions outside of state as well. I think the attrition (sp?) rate is pre-thames.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

Just when I say it, he does it again

"the attrition thing is pre-Thames..."

Date: Apr 17, 2004

sorry-but a lot of usm's problems are systemic. well before thames. I'm sorry if you don't like to hear it, but eliminate thames and a lot of the same problems will remain. i've been here over 20 years.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

Don't be sorry, but I love to hear it. I think people understand what angle you come from.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

and what angle is that? usm is complicated and screwy. i have a lot of sweat equity in usm, as much as stringer and glamser. i've seen and know stuff that some folks wouldn't believe. i've given up on some issues. but as i said on another thread--here's my basic philosophy, it i don't like slt and his adminstration. like it or not--i believe we have to take the high ground. we shouldn't stoop to the strategies and approaches they do. if we don't like mader's butchering of statistics, let's make sure we use them without reproach. if not, we might as well wallow with the pigs. and so forth. tomcat--you have no idea what i'm about.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"i've said this on other threads. Ole Miss is eating us alive in the honors area. ken panton has his hands full. I heard an interesting statistic--in the past 50% of honors students leave the honors program (not the university) after their first year. i have heard recruiters say that certain things go on in the honors program that discourage students from applying. i think ken knows these issues and is trying to address them."

I spent 5 years Pre-Shelby (during Lucas and Fleming, actually) working in the USM Honors College as the freshman/sophomore Honors program coordinator, so I feel uniquely qualified to speak on this topic.

No, the attrition rate for first-year freshman was never 50%. It was probably more like 25-30%. Some of these kids left USM and some left Honors. Honors isn't for every smart kid--it's a rigorous program focused on a broad-based liberal (gasp! that word!) education. At least it was when I was there (1995-2000). Some majors didn't work well with Honors due to course scheduling, and Music and Theater majors always had a hard time due to practice schedules/rehearsals. Some kids got way too involved in extra-curricular activities and decided that working hard academically just wasn't for them. From what I remember, our attrition rate in Honors was always better than the average attrition rate for USM (which makes sense since these kids got a lot of extra attention from our staff...this was mostly pre-Freshman Year Experience program).

Just had to stick up for the Honors College (at least as I knew it!).

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
" I spent 5 years Pre-Shelby (during Lucas and Fleming, actually) working in the USM Honors College as the freshman/sophomore Honors program coordinator, so I feel uniquely qualified to speak on this topic. No, the attrition rate for first-year freshman was never 50%. It was probably more like 25-30%. Some of these kids left USM and some left Honors. Honors isn't for every smart kid--it's a rigorous program focused on a broad-based liberal (gasp! that word!) education. At least it was when I was there (1995-2000). Some majors didn't work well with Honors due to course scheduling, and Music and Theater majors always had a hard time due to practice schedules/rehearsals. Some kids got way too involved in extra-curricular activities and decided that working hard academically just wasn't for them. From what I remember, our attrition rate in Honors was always better than the average attrition rate for USM (which makes sense since these kids got a lot of extra attention from our staff...this was mostly pre-Freshman Year Experience program). Just had to stick up for the Honors College (at least as I knew it!)."

I've been hitting the reload button waiting for you to add your very qualified two cents.

The program was stellar when I was an HC student, the timing of which coincides with when you were employed there.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

i love the honor's college. i have one in it and one that will be in it. i can understand why some don't fit. but the source of the stats is legit and at such a high level i can't say anymore. this person knows the numbers--it's not a case of numbers being handed down to someone else to someone else .... i was stunned. recruiters complained about the atmosphere. i don't agree but talking to my child i can see the potential for problems.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"i love the honor's college. i have one in it and one that will be in it. i can understand why some don't fit. but the source of the stats is legit and at such a high level i can't say anymore. this person knows the numbers--it's not a case of numbers being handed down to someone else to someone else .... i was stunned. recruiters complained about the atmosphere. i don't agree but talking to my child i can see the potential for problems."

Sorry...freshman to sophomore attrition rate may have hit 50% recently, but not on my watch (1995-2000). I'll stick by that.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

i don't know the time frame, but the source of the attrition rate is good.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

i closely read your post on your experience. all i heard was 50% of honors students did not return in the program the next year. some could have left USM, but the clear implication of what I heard was that the majority left the honors program but not USM. again, that's all i know except the high level of the information

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quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"i closely read your post on your experience. all i heard was 50% of honors students did not return in the program the next year. some could have left USM, but the clear implication of what I heard was that the majority left the honors program but not USM. again, that's all i know except the high level of the information"

I know for a fact that this was not happening prior to 2000. It's a rigorous program with many expectations.

I wonder how Thames' lowering admissions standards has affected the Honors College. If standards for admissions to the HC have been lowered in line with overall admissions, then it would be understandable that lower quality entries into the HC program might not be able to cut the muster and gave up.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

truth4usm and FS, I think you are right. Arguing with iddad is, to use his/her phrase, "wallowing with pigs." I trust you saw his/her exchange with the LSU grad student.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

I have heard (from reliable sources) that the freshman and sophmore colloquiums are being cut. (Excuse me if this was already in this thread.)

It seems that in the 2002-3 year there were more presidential scholars, and that there was a decline in the quality of (some) new honors college students this year. Only my personal impression, from a very small sample group.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

oh tomcat--you draw conclusions about me that aren't warranted. if only your knew who i was!

already, you conclude that ST lowered admissions standards, based on an analysis by LSU social science grad student that's up for debate and discussion. no where is it fact or close to. see my recent comments to him. i think it is just as reasonable to say the top group is getting skimmed off by ole miss and msu. we get a lower act group.

let's not make light of those in the administration who make light of statistics when we are guilty of the same. let's take the high road. let's put the Thames administration in it's place by being right/just/correct. let's now lower ourselves to their standards. you may think that i am pro-thames, but if you knew me you wouldn't conclude that at all. i just believe that we have to take the high road. sorry if you don't believe that.

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quote:
Originally posted by: foot soldier
"I have heard (from reliable sources) that the freshman and sophmore colloquiums are being cut. (Excuse me if this was already in this thread.) It seems that in the 2002-3 year there were more presidential scholars, and that there was a decline in the quality of (some) new honors college students this year. Only my personal impression, from a very small sample group."

Yes, colloquium is being cut, but that is not the reason I was given. According to my source, a sanguine relation of the prez didn't like it, went and bitched to the prez, and he arbitrarily decided to do away with it.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

please excuse my grammatical errors in the last post. i figure your get my point.

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quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"oh tomcat--you draw conclusions about me that aren't warranted. if only your knew who i was! already, you conclude that ST lowered admissions standards, based on an analysis by LSU social science grad student that's up for debate and discussion. no where is it fact or close to. see my recent comments to him. i think it is just as reasonable to say the top group is getting skimmed off by ole miss and msu. we get a lower act group. let's not make light of those in the administration who make light of statistics when we are guilty of the same. let's take the high road. let's put the Thames administration in it's place by being right/just/correct. let's now lower ourselves to their standards. you may think that i am pro-thames, but if you knew me you wouldn't conclude that at all. i just believe that we have to take the high road. sorry if you don't believe that. "

IF indeed the "top group" is choosing LSU or Ole Miss over USM, I have little doubt that it has to do with changes in the university over the past two years.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

don't take my word for it. go to ole miss's data and msu's data and look at the distribution of act scores for their entering freshman class and look at our data. i've been talking about this in a class of mine for a week.

Date: Apr 17, 2004

let me add phi beta kappa. that is a recruiting tool we don't have. i've talked to recruiters at other pretigious private universities in the state and they're having trouble matching ole miss's offers.

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quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"don't take my word for it. go to ole miss's data and msu's data and look at the distribution of act scores for their entering freshman class and look at our data. i've been talking about this in a class of mine for a week. "

From which years are you using this data? Could you show us a comparison between 2000-2001 data and 2003-2004 data?

(You are telling your class that they are not as smart as Ole Miss and State students? I bet they love that.)

Date: Apr 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"let me add phi beta kappa. that is a recruiting tool we don't have. i've talked to recruiters at other pretigious private universities in the state and they're having trouble matching ole miss's offers. "

That was true 5 years ago when I was there. Ole Miss' Honors College has a huge endowment (over $5 million, I believe). You just can't compete with that amount of money. I did hear that the HC increased its presidential scholarships from 10 to 20 per year, but I would be interested to know if the criteria has remained the same as before (need an ACT of at least 30 plus a good HS GPA). Any idea?

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quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
"That was true 5 years ago when I was there. Ole Miss' Honors College has a huge endowment (over $5 million, I believe). You just can't compete with that amount of money. I did hear that the HC increased its presidential scholarships from 10 to 20 per year, but I would be interested to know if the criteria has remained the same as before (need an ACT of at least 30 plus a good HS GPA). Any idea?"

Would also like to know if Senior Honors is recruiting as vigorously as it was five-ten years ago. From what I have heard, since Shelby entered the presidency, he has shown disdain toward community college students. He wants them to come in as freshmen or not at all.

Date: Apr 18, 2004

The biggest problem in Honors recruiting is our lack of money to attract top students. The ACT minimum for Honors has been lowered to 24 to fill the class. At Ole Miss that's close to the average freshman. Dropping Forum was primarily a financial decision. The money will be used for other things in Honors. Thames is said to have little use for the program, but he is not actively killing it right now. Panton is trying to save it with limited resources.

Date: Apr 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Flash Gordon
"The biggest problem in Honors recruiting is our lack of money to attract top students. The ACT minimum for Honors has been lowered to 24 to fill the class. At Ole Miss that's close to the average freshman. Dropping Forum was primarily a financial decision. The money will be used for other things in Honors. Thames is said to have little use for the program, but he is not actively killing it right now. Panton is trying to save it with limited resources. "

That is so sad....it's not an expensive program to run, in the grand scheme of things. It's also one of the oldest Honors Colleges in the nation (I think it's the 6th largest). Interestingly enough, when I went to the International Development web page, I saw that the person who currently holds the position I held in Honors is working on her PhD in International Dev. Maybe she could get Ken Malone to intervene on the Honors College's behalf with SFT? If this is true (sticklers for truth, notice I said IF!), it will be one more nail in the coffin for USM's reputation as a "real" university.

Date: Apr 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
"it will be one more nail in the coffin for USM's reputation as a "real" university."

I'd like to emphasize this. Flyers about the Forum are the sort of thing one puts in the package of materials about the University and the community that you give to interviewees. A lecture series of distinquished speakers is the sort of thing an academic expects to find at any respectable college or university.

For the people out there who are from Mississippi, you have to realize that the state has a terrible reputation (whether deserved or not) and that many candidates do not even apply here. I once heard a candidate ask, in total sincerity, "So...just how backwards is this place?" (And he was a southerner!) When recruiting, it is often necessary to demonstrate that Hattiesburg is not a total cultural backwater. The arts programs and the Forum help sell the University as a whole. If you hurt these, everyone suffers.

Date: Apr 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: foot soldier
" I'd like to emphasize this. Flyers about the Forum are the sort of thing one puts in the package of materials about the University and the community that you give to interviewees. A lecture series of distinquished speakers is the sort of thing an academic expects to find at any respectable college or university. For the people out there who are from Mississippi, you have to realize that the state has a terrible reputation (whether deserved or not) and that many candidates do not even apply here. I once heard a candidate ask, in total sincerity, "So...just how backwards is this place?" (And he was a southerner!) When recruiting, it is often necessary to demonstrate that Hattiesburg is not a total cultural backwater. The arts programs and the Forum help sell the University as a whole. If you hurt these, everyone suffers."

I agree with Foot Soldier. I posted something to this effect last night but it sailed into cyberspace.

The original discussion in Fac Sen was about the Forum, not the Honors College. There is a general feeling that the only people interested in keeping the College alive are the faculty running it and some other faculty and maybe the Provost who seems to have not much power right now.

The Fac Sen discussion, however, concerned the forum and ran exactly along the lines Foot Soldier expressed: it is a shame that a university which has pretentions to being "world class" has only one major Speakers program (correct me if I am wrong you folks from the other colleges). And that program is now just about gone. No one disagreed with Panton's decision to do what he needed to do to redirect funds for the College. But it is a shame because the forum not only served a broader community than the Honors Program, but emblematically it served as a kind of visible statement about the importance of a community of scholars and students that spans the disciplines. It brought the outside world into our little isolated Southern village. It hasn't been well-attended. But on the other hand I believe that an administration sets the tone for what students deem to be important and this administration HAS NOT in any way shape or form supported genuine intellectual discourse. No wonder so many students and faculty could dismiss it as uimportant.

It makes sense -- the administration isn't capable of undertaking that discourse in any profound way. Unfortunately, if there is anything that sets the university apart from broader culture it is that intellectual life is central in the university. Intellectual life defines the university. I am afraid that at USM intellectual life is increasingly marginalized and even scorned by those who pretend to lead us.

Truth to say, if there is anything that enrages those of us who work with students it is the sense that the people who run the university don't understand university life, can't explain it to the public, and won't defend it to the people who set the budgets. When we have an intellectually impoverished elite of managers and administrators such as we have now, what can any of us expect?

The Barbarians are not at the gates, they are now our rulers.

Date: Apr 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
"...Maybe she could get Ken Malone to intervene on the Honors College's behalf with SFT?..."

Maybe, I'm just on the wrong side of the looking glass here but asking the most obvious of the academically unqualified cronies representing the most controversial and out-of-control program, to intervene for the Honors College, renowned for its academic quality? Give me a break!

Date: Apr 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: lddad
"let me add phi beta kappa. that is a recruiting tool we don't have. i've talked to recruiters at other pretigious private universities in the state and they're having trouble matching ole miss's offers. "

And Phi Beta Kappa is nothing we ever will have, at least not under the current administration. The fact is that some of the colleges with PBK do not have as many strong faculty as we have had.

But PBK demands a strong, explicit committment to liberal arts, as their newsletter states again in its latest issue. This is something beyond the comprehension of ST, our College Board, most of the state legislator, etc. You'd think they'd at least be able to grasp the connection between the higher prestige of degrees from Ole Miss, State, and most other places and their continued emphasis (at least more than ours now) on liberal arts.

But I suppose that's expecting too much. Hell, I thought even state legislators would see the practical value of liberal arts in general simply because former students of Lib Arts fields are more likely to raise to the _top_ of really big national companies, get better scores on MCATs, etc. And I also thought they'd comprehend that when the current madness from the dome damages our reputation among educators at the national level, it means that the value of their kids' usm degrees declines. But I guess not...