This Mess

Date: Apr 19, 2004

This Mess

Date: Apr 19, 2004

Thames had a grace period until January, 2003 when he terminated nine deans without notice the day after he told local leaders of the business community. That was followed my one of the largest departures of faculty in history and a massive drop in new freshmen in fall 2003. Then we had the false enrollment scandal followed by a flawed drug and alcohol policy. Somehow I don't think the problem is faculty manners.

Date: Apr 19, 2004

You might listen to the faculty convocation (link on the FS home page). Many people did give Thames the benefit of the doubt, even after the reorganization. (There were positive comments about it by faculty members in the Hattiesburg American at the time.) But he has now gone too far. I would suggest you read the rest of the website. 430 people don't vote "no confidence" on a whim.

Date: Apr 19, 2004

Onlooker,

Do you think that lying on your resume is OK?

If you do, then I can understand why you think Glamser and Stringer were making much ado about nothing. (Of course, you are also putting me on notice not to believe what you are saying on your resume.)

If you don't, then I can't understand why you are blaming the USM faculty.

Robert Campbell

Date: Apr 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Concerned Onlooker
"Thank God I attend MSU. Ole Miss with Colonel Reb and all the Southern pageantry, now USM with their near mini civil war. There are disagreements at MSU but the USM debacle is just out of control. I think that BOTH parties are out of line and it is ridiculous. Thames, an accomplished USM professor and alumnus, has tried to do things his way or no way and the faculty looking for a martyr (Glamser and Stringer) liberal cause have found one in defeating a heavy handed leader. The Dvorak mess seems to be overblown on the faculty part. She is guilty by association because you SELF RIGHTEOUS activist professors (the ones publishing the website and orchestrating this mess) never gave Thames a grace period and he responded accordingly in an equally stupid manner. To Dr. Thames and the faculty, learn the rules of diplomacy. Southern Miss is not to the top right now. CALM DOWN and shut down the propaganda machines. If you all can rightfully claim to be the largest university next year, I would be suprised. Go Dawgs!"

Calm down??? Dude, you are a jerk trying to stir up trouble. If you've never attended college - might I suggest Enterprise State as your first place to begin. With Thames, the grace period never happened. Do some research, and you wouldn't come up with such silly posts as the one you just gave. Boomer Sooner.

Date: Apr 19, 2004

Thames, an accomplished USM professor and alumnus, has tried to do things his way or no way and the faculty looking for a martyr (Glamser and Stringer) liberal cause have found one in defeating a heavy handed leader.

Do you really think the faculty was looking for martyrS?? And once again the term "liberal" is brought up. Maybe because you did end up at MSU, you're brain is dissembled. Starksville is such an up and coming place to be -- watch out for those glass houses, some boulders could be hurled in your direction.

Date: Apr 19, 2004

relax all

Date: Apr 19, 2004

RE: This Mess

Date: Apr 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: USM Sympathizer
"Just one further thought: I am always surprised when this issue is framed as a liberal vs. conservative conflict. . . . . Ironically, it is President Thames who is acting in a non-conservative fashion, because it is he who is subverting well-established traditions of academic freedom and shared governance."

HEAR HEAR!

This is an issue that actually unites many of us from both ends of the spectrum and the middle. The Senate is an excellent example -- I am very sorry to disappoint "Concerned Onlooker" but there are many very good and strong conservative faculty members in the Senate. In fact, not all that long ago, the Student Printz ran an excellent article about the way in which USM's faculty tends to give the lie to the idea that university faculties are bastions of liberalism . . . . remember that 430-31 vote -- it does not represent a right versus left debate.

I AM a liberal and I can tell you this campus is not exactly home field if you lean left. I will say that my conservative colleagues and students are gentlemen and gentlewomen all and though we may disagree on issues we all agree that we are contributing members of the campus community.

To put this controversy in terms of conservative-liberal, right-left or republican--democrat is to misunderstand the university community and its fidelity to the concept of the free exchange of ideas. It is also to misunderstand this specific university and those who love it and who are willing to fight for its ability to survive as an intellectual community.

Maybe the some of the rest of the world thinks we are a bunch of rubes out here. I say rather that we are here on the front lines fighting the battle that is occuring elsewhere but in more covert ways. The thinking and wiritng that is pouring out of this community right now can serve as ammunition for a lot of other universities whose battles are yet to come.

Incidently, when I left NEW YORK it was at the time when an organized group with a very specific agenda to supress certain kinds of discourse on the university campus were demanding resumes, class syllabi and bios of all professors in departments they wanted to attack. The Barbarians are all around us and they ARE NOT confined to Mississippi.

Date: Apr 19, 2004

My efforts to contact members of the discipline of literature to come to the aid of the two professors have led to at least one e-mail from a right-of-spectrum group that would like to have them speak at a forthcoming conference. This is concrete evidence that some conservatives, at least, support academic freedom in general and also in this particular case. I suspect, in fact, that many, many conservatives support this cause.

Date: Apr 19, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Robert Evans
"My efforts to contact members of the discipline of literature to come to the aid of the two professors have led to at least one e-mail from a right-of-spectrum group that would like to have them speak at a forthcoming conference. This is concrete evidence that some conservatives, at least, support academic freedom in general and also in this particular case. I suspect, in fact, that many, many conservatives support this cause."

Robert that is really excellent and I am very glad to hear this. I like to think that are are some fundamental beliefs around which most of us can sometimes unite . . . as pollyannish as that might seen. Given the current state of affairs down here, I look upon that as a good sign and one that will give a bit of ammo to those who want to argue that this is a right-left issue . . . . it has also been hugely gratifying to have colleagues and students from business, science and technology areas also speaking out in favor of the academic freedom and governance issues. It is so easy for us to balkanize . . . . those of us in the liberal arts and fine arts do not own a patent on these concerns, though the nature of our disciplines and our own discomfort with our current position in the academic world can lead us to believe that this is so . . .

Thanks so much for your work!

Date: Apr 20, 2004

Remember that the Faculty Senate vote was 40:0 in favor of reinstating professors Glamser and Stringer. Each of the colleges are represented.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

RE: This Mess: liberal vs conservative? NOT

Date: Apr 20, 2004

431-30

Date: Apr 20, 2004

RE: RE: This Mess

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

RE: 431-30

Date: Apr 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: query
"BTW, FYI Quite a few of those in the minority "30" group voted for RONNIE MUSCGROVE. Many left of center people made a huge mistake voting for pro-Thames Muscgrove, rather than Republican Mike Parker. Many will not admit their mistake. Mississippians, especially those in South Miss, need to be more "flexible" in our approach to elected officials. If Mike Parker had been elected governor, Thames would NOT be president and we would be not be in this "mess.""

Wow...wish I had your crystal ball. Can you predict who'll win the new TN Powerball lottery for me, too?

Date: Apr 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by:
" If we are going to play the blame game, let's keep in mind that the present and past two gubernatorial administrations are responsible for the college board that appointed Thames. Let's remember that Fordice, Musgrove, and Barbour are responsible for the appointees that now sit on the college board. Two Republicans, one Democrat. The present state of USM cannot be completely blamed on one governor. Now, having said that, let me add the paramount point. Even though uninformed people have tried to paint "the resistance" at USM as liberal commie hippies, the truth is that the movement at USM is peopled by folks of all political persuasions, ethnicities, religions, ages, academic backgrounds. Democrats, Republicans, Independents, and Greens all have banded together to have Thames removed. Your attempt to create division in our ranks is noted (and dismissed). If Mike Parker had been elected, yadda yadda yadda. If a frog had wings, it wouldn't scrape its butt when it jumps. Sorry if I seem short tempered, but your argument holds little water, and, frankly, it pi$$es me off when people attempt to make this a Republican vs. Democrat issue--it clearly IS NOT."

And I have to add once again that Frank Glamser would characterize himself as a CONSERVATIVE, I believe! I remember him coming out in support of the Iraq war on USM Talk last year and making what I would characterize as very CONSERVATIVE arguments. I echo Fire Shelby:

THIS IS NOT A CONSERVATIVE VS. LIBERAL ISSUE! GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL!

Okay, back to my normal type font.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

Right-Left, Right-Wrong, Smart-Stupid

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
Let's frame this as "right and wrong" and not "right and left." ...In this case, the administration (which I view politically as "radical") is wrong. The professors, whether they be "L" or "C" politically are right. Regardless of the right-left, right-wrong aspects, there is also the smart-stupid angle. The way the firings were handled was STUPID & the way "authorities" like Roy Klumb have pontificated on it goes beyond the definition of "stupid.""

Amen, brother! You just said a mouthful.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"I have been scolded here for mentioning the "L-word" vs "C-word" slant that's been cast on this here azalea festival. And I deserved it. And I repent, yea verily. Let's frame this as "right and wrong" and not "right and left." Sometimes, politically, the right is wrong, which also means that the left is right. Of course, sometimes the right is right & the left is wrong. But that's immaterial around here, except as a way to twist the cerebral cortext before the caffeine sinks in. In this case, the administration (which I view politically as "radical") is wrong. The professors, whether they be "L" or "C" politically are right. Regardless of the right-left, right-wrong aspects, there is also the smart-stupid angle. The way the firings were handled was STUPID & the way "authorities" like Roy Klumb have pontificated on it goes beyond the definition of "stupid.""

Date: Apr 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: educator
""

Good points, Invictus -- and actually Roy Klumb, in many groups of people, would appear to be Liberally Stupid - quite the old radical.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

RE: This Mess

Date: Apr 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: USM Sympathizer
"Does anyone have any idea what truth4usm REALLY thinks about this matter? "

Subtlety is not my strong point! Esp. not today.

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: truth4usm
"Subtlety is not my strong point! Esp. not today. "

We need to do a "Today at USM" thread, kind of like weather prediction, except on campus morale. I heard it's like a morgue today--not the usual hustle bustle of students and faculty, just dead--zombie like.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by:
" We need to do a "Today at USM" thread, kind of like weather prediction, except on campus morale. I heard it's like a morgue today--not the usual hustle bustle of students and faculty, just dead--zombie like."

Why are things so gloomy today? Is it because of the news of the administrators looking elsewhere? Is the gloomy mood good or bad for SFT?

Date: Apr 20, 2004

FS, your are 100% right. You misunderstood my point, and I take responsibility. I should never utter what a voter "ought or ought not" do.

I figured you might misunderstand, so let's agree to agree that yes, all 3 govs' are to blame. Fordice started this whole non-academic trend, and we have him to blame Klumb for.

I did NOT mean to say one party is in general better or worse. I wanted to imply one particular election, just once (probably never happen again), South MIssissippi had a chance for major representation on the IHL. I should have kept my mouth shut. He could have been the Pink party for all I know. He made it known he was putting USM on the IHL board, and it didn't help him.

Mike Parker, like him or not, whether he was Rep, Dem, INd, or Green or Pink, would have put three USM people on that board. That was ALL I meant to say. Many profs vote only Democratic and others only vote Republican. And, he could have put three Robin Robinsons on the board for all I know.

I was trying to point out the problems that such can lead to and the LAST person I want any argument with is my hero FS.

Truth be known, Parker was maybe an anomoly, a once in a lifetime chance for USM to pack the board. That has past, and FS is correct in noting that it does no good to play the blame game.

I meant this only as a "BTW, parenthetical" comment only, and my wording caused a misunderstanding.

I will say Haley's appointments for me are a bitter bitter disappointment.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: query
" I wanted to imply one particular election, just once (probably never happen again), South MIssissippi had a chance for major representation on the IHL. (snip) Mike Parker, like him or not, whether he was Rep, Dem, INd, or Green or Pink, would have put three USM people on that board. "

HUH??? And how would Mike Parker have gotten away with putting 3 reps from USM on the board? I really can't imagine that this would've EVER happened. Ole Miss and MSU wouldn't have let it.

But, again, this is all speculation, so it should be labelled as such.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

Hey truth

Ggood point. This is one of the reasons Parker lost. He let it be a bit too known. Delta dems went all out to stop this. Ole Miss and State people knew.

Once elected, Ole Miss and State could not have stopped it.

Mike lost by the slimmest margin in MS history, I think. Correct me someone if I am wrong. It was Parker's own fault for being complacent the last month of the race when he thought he had it in the bag.

Oh no, Ole Miss and State folks were very worried about Mike Parker, but he kept the IHL thing low key enough for many on this board, who obviously didn't know, but the word got around the delta.

It will be a long time before another South Mississippian can get that close.

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: query
"FS, your are 100% right. You misunderstood my point, and I take responsibility. I should never utter what a voter "ought or ought not" do. I figured you might misunderstand, so let's agree to agree that yes, all 3 govs' are to blame. Fordice started this whole non-academic trend, and we have him to blame Klumb for. I did NOT mean to say one party is in general better or worse. I wanted to imply one particular election, just once (probably never happen again), South MIssissippi had a chance for major representation on the IHL. I should have kept my mouth shut. He could have been the Pink party for all I know. He made it known he was putting USM on the IHL board, and it didn't help him. Mike Parker, like him or not, whether he was Rep, Dem, INd, or Green or Pink, would have put three USM people on that board. That was ALL I meant to say. Many profs vote only Democratic and others only vote Republican. And, he could have put three Robin Robinsons on the board for all I know. I was trying to point out the problems that such can lead to and the LAST person I want any argument with is my hero FS. Truth be known, Parker was maybe an anomoly, a once in a lifetime chance for USM to pack the board. That has past, and FS is correct in noting that it does no good to play the blame game. I meant this only as a "BTW, parenthetical" comment only, and my wording caused a misunderstanding. I will say Haley's appointments for me are a bitter bitter disappointment. "

Thanks for your post. I agree with you on this one. If I jumped the gun on your last one, I apologize. I just get a little antsy when people make this a DemvsRep issue. I see from this post that you are not attempting to do that.

I will disagree on Robin Robinson. I think she is just another corporate appointee who looks to mine publicly funded universities for profits for a few. The trend of appointing business elite instead of people with academic experience to the board is most disturbing to me.

We're cool. Don't sweat it. I am itchy on the trigger finger today--sorry if you got caught in my crossfire.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

Whooooooooo, you're drinking too much coffee FS

You AGREE with me on Robin. Go back and read. I was disappointed, just as you.

"jumps the gun"

Maybe you need to sit out on the Gulf sand a few hours, LOL.

The only thing to hope for is that Robin will "grow" into the job, but don't count on it. And Blakesley looks horrible now.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

I have to admit that I voted for Nader in the last election! I also was a big Mike Parker fan and was disappointed with that result. I also like Ronnie Shows and loved the way he blew off SHelby and Co. in D.C. when Shelby etc. were in D.C. "celebrating" Shelby's rise to power (Oct. 2002). Ronnie was invited to join in on the official celebration - begged off claiming campaign issues back in MS, but later that night in some whoopdeedoo "cocktail lounge" who did Shelby and Co. run right into??? You got it!! Some Republican website ran a story on it and if I can somehow find it again - i will. It's fun reading.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: educator
"I have to admit that I voted for Nader in the last election! I also was a big Mike Parker fan and was disappointed with that result. I also like Ronnie Shows and loved the way he blew off SHelby and Co. in D.C. when Shelby etc. were in D.C. "celebrating" Shelby's rise to power (Oct. 2002). Ronnie was invited to join in on the official celebration - begged off claiming campaign issues back in MS, but later that night in some whoopdeedoo "cocktail lounge" who did Shelby and Co. run right into??? You got it!! Some Republican website ran a story on it and if I can somehow find it again - i will. It's fun reading."

Please find it and post it if you can!

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: query
"Whooooooooo, you're drinking too much coffee FS You AGREE with me on Robin. Go back and read. I was disappointed, just as you. "jumps the gun" Maybe you need to sit out on the Gulf sand a few hours, LOL. The only thing to hope for is that Robin will "grow" into the job, but don't count on it. And Blakesley looks horrible now."

I thought you were advocating the appointment of three Robin Robinsons to the board. From that my comment emanated.

I will just add this, and it isn't directed to anyone specifically, but I don't give a rat's patootey if there are TWELVE USM grads on the board. If they are corporate puppets only used to turn Mississippi's public universities into "millionaire machines" then they can be more detrimental to USM than Ole Miss, JSU, or MSU academicians will be.

As for the Gulf sand, yeah, I need a minivacation--I REALLY NEED A WEEK AWAY FROM THIS DEPRESSING USM CRISIS--but since I am boycotting the coast, I'll probably go spend the weekend on the Vidalia riverwalk or at the Natchez Eola. I'll drink a mint julip for you.

Date: Apr 20, 2004

Ooooh, pretty pictures of drinks! Now I REALLY don't want to get back to work!