Jack Hanbury, Risk Manager

Date: Apr 21, 2004

Jack Hanbury, Risk Manager

Date: Apr 21, 2004

Only if someone files a formal complaint with the bar.

Date: Apr 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Flash Gordon
"Only if someone files a formal complaint with the bar."

USM attorney...it is time to step up...will your boss, the ATTORNEY GENERAL, fire you for doing so? We've already learned that your non-boss does NOT have the authority to do so.

Date: Apr 21, 2004

Is his "advising" the President considered practicing law?

This is an issue since I read that he is licenced in Kentucky but not Mississippi.

I am not sure what "practice" of law means here. He might be able to legally "advise."

Has he been licensed by the MS bar?

Date: Apr 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Greedy
"Is his "advising" the President considered practicing law? This is an issue since I read that he is licenced in Kentucky but not Mississippi. I am not sure what "practice" of law means here. He might be able to legally "advise." Has he been licensed by the MS bar?"

What if the "advice" is in writing?

Date: Apr 21, 2004

For All:

The definition for the practice of law can be found in the MS. rules. There has already been an attempt to thwart him and this is the wrong road to go down.

As far as USM legal counsel--when you can't get him to respond to issues in your department what makes you think he will respond to our need for help?

Date: Apr 21, 2004

My ex husband (who I had a hand in disbarring from the Calif. Bar) many years ago - could not "Practice" law - such as actually going to court and representing anyone. However, he could advise and use a paralegal to do any filing. His period of disbarrment was 3 years.

Date: Apr 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Greedy
"I am not sure what "practice" of law means here. He might be able to legally "advise.""

My Aunt Gertrude can give "legal advice." The guy in the cab of the log truck stuck at the stop light ahead of you can give "legal advice." I'll offer that either one of them would be capable of giving better legal advice than Jack Hanbury.

USM is paying Hanbury a lot of money to "practice." For that money, you'd think they'd find somebody who didn't need all that practicing & could just do the job. Seriously, it looks to me like Hanbury really doesn't know his ankle from his elbow when it comes to school law or IHL board policy.

Hanbury not only needs a lot more "practice" before he does law for real, he is a poor adviser.

I have a good lawyer. Several times, when I was angry & about to pop off & do something stupid, he's calmed me down, gotten me to think rationally, etc. I don't see that Hanbury did this when Shelby blew his gasket & decided to jump over all the established procedures in his eagerness to be a "tough guy" with Glamser & Stringer & that evil "labor union" AAUP.

Shelby's temper is, and always has been, his biggest character flaw. One would think his advisers would work hard to minimize that flaw, but it looks to me like they do the exact opposite. Instead of grabbing Shelby & pulling him to safety when he starts throwing a tantrum out close to the edge, they give him a little shove.

I've wondered half-seriously if Hanbury's actual agenda is to get Shelby canned, opening the door for Angie's next presidency...

Date: Apr 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Greedy
"Is his "advising" the President considered practicing law? This is an issue since I read that he is licenced in Kentucky but not Mississippi. I am not sure what "practice" of law means here. He might be able to legally "advise." Has he been licensed by the MS bar?"

Yes, he is now listed as a member of the Mississippi Bar but was not for his first six months or so. Dvoraks are not listed, btw, but that is probably irrelevant because they are not practicing law in their official positions of VP for Grants Administration (or R&D, don't remember exactly) and Human Resource Manager.

Now that Hanbury is legal to practice in Mississippi, is he liable for the advice that he gives? What if that advice is, say, contrary to another lawyer's interpretation of state law? What happens if individuals follow his advice and are later charged with violations?

Outside attorneys, we could use some help here.

Date: Apr 21, 2004

I have followed this incident since its inception. I will offer my "opinion."

From what I know about what Mr. Hanbury has been doing it cannot be classified as the practice of law. As an earlier person mentioned you need to go to the Mississippi Court Rule and research the definition. You will be disappointed.

Secondly, asking USM counsel to file a complaint is a really bad mistake on his behalf.

Third, the earlier person, I hope I spell this correctly "Invector" should refrain from some comments he or she made about one's ability to practice law this could lead Invector to his/her own troubles.

Last, When you start checking into one's legal background into areas that are not publically accessable you BETTER be careful and BETTER have a REALLY VALID AND GOOD REASON to do so. If not not only does the individual have a cause of action against you but the Bar Association in each state does as well.

My advice is to back off this one!

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: Golden Eagle (Outside Attorney)
"I have followed this incident since its inception. I will offer my "opinion." From what I know about what Mr. Hanbury has been doing it cannot be classified as the practice of law. As an earlier person mentioned you need to go to the Mississippi Court Rule and research the definition. You will be disappointed. Secondly, asking USM counsel to file a complaint is a really bad mistake on his behalf. Third, the earlier person, I hope I spell this correctly "Invector" should refrain from some comments he or she made about one's ability to practice law this could lead Invector to his/her own troubles. Last, When you start checking into one's legal background into areas that are not publically accessable you BETTER be careful and BETTER have a REALLY VALID AND GOOD REASON to do so. If not not only does the individual have a cause of action against you but the Bar Association in each state does as well. My advice is to back off this one!"

LOL! Angie, you need to lay off the cosmopolitans at brunch.

Date: Apr 21, 2004

I am an attorney. I am not licensed to practice in MS so I don't know MS law that well, but, in response to Stickler for Details question, I would assume that the issue is one of legal malpractice. Black's Law Dictionary defines Legal Malpractice as:

Consists of failure of an attorney to use such skill, prudence, and diligence as lawyers of ordinary skll and capacity commonly possess and exercise in performance of tasks which they undertake, and when such failure proximately cuases damage it gives rise to an action in tort.

I will leave it MS lawyers to explain how this cause of action is implemented under MS law, but my understanding is that it is one that only a client can bring against his or her attorney.

Also, just because a lawyer provides bad or incorrect advice, it doesn't necessarily give rise to legal malpractice.

Again, this is not my area of expertise and I don't practice in MS.

I don't know if the facts support a claim that Hanbury engaged in the unauthorized practice of law, but here is a story of how the played out under North Carolina law in the context of out of state lawyers advising a university:

http://biz.yahoo.com/law/040408/059b0e13bf28788f2c37515e20d7f3ba_1.html

Date: Apr 21, 2004

DC Eagle has been shown to be a good friend to this website in the past. Looks like the combination of advice is that there might be something there but tread very cautiously.

Thank you.

Date: Apr 21, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: DCeagle
"I am an attorney. I am not licensed to practice in MS so I don't know MS law that well, but, in response to Stickler for Details question, I would assume that the issue is one of legal malpractice. Black's Law Dictionary defines Legal Malpractice as: Consists of failure of an attorney to use such skill, prudence, and diligence as lawyers of ordinary skll and capacity commonly possess and exercise in performance of tasks which they undertake, and when such failure proximately cuases damage it gives rise to an action in tort. I will leave it MS lawyers to explain how this cause of action is implemented under MS law, but my understanding is that it is one that only a client can bring against his or her attorney. Also, just because a lawyer provides bad or incorrect advice, it doesn't necessarily give rise to legal malpractice. Again, this is not my area of expertise and I don't practice in MS. I don't know if the facts support a claim that Hanbury engaged in the unauthorized practice of law, but here is a story of how the played out under North Carolina law in the context of out of state lawyers advising a university: http://biz.yahoo.com/law/040408/059b0e13bf28788f2c37515e20d7f3ba_1.html"

Thank you, DC Eagle. I know for a fact that DC Eagle *is* an attorney, and a very good one at that. And he also spells everything right (unlike our atty. friend Golden Eagle on the other thread). Points for correct grammatical usage, DC Eagle!

Date: Apr 21, 2004

Just got off the phone from my attorney, who some of you know, and his advice is follow it through but exercise caution before any bold statements are made.

Date: Apr 21, 2004

The article that DC Eagle posted a link to is very interesting...I don't have time to read it all, but someone here should and report back any similarities to our case at USM. Interesting point: it happened at Gardner-Webb College...isn't that where Rick Reeves is going to coach basketball?

Date: Apr 23, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: DCeagle
"I am an attorney. I am not licensed to practice in MS so I don't know MS law that well, but, in response to Stickler for Details question, I would assume that the issue is one of legal malpractice. Black's Law Dictionary defines Legal Malpractice as: Consists of failure of an attorney to use such skill, prudence, and diligence as lawyers of ordinary skll and capacity commonly possess and exercise in performance of tasks which they undertake, and when such failure proximately cuases damage it gives rise to an action in tort. I will leave it MS lawyers to explain how this cause of action is implemented under MS law, but my understanding is that it is one that only a client can bring against his or her attorney. Also, just because a lawyer provides bad or incorrect advice, it doesn't necessarily give rise to legal malpractice. Again, this is not my area of expertise and I don't practice in MS. I don't know if the facts support a claim that Hanbury engaged in the unauthorized practice of law, but here is a story of how the played out under North Carolina law in the context of out of state lawyers advising a university: http://biz.yahoo.com/law/040408/059b0e13bf28788f2c37515e20d7f3ba_1.html"

Here is the article that DCeagle passed on for those who didn't get a chance to look it up.

Law.com
Ga. Lawyers Indicted for Advising N.C. College
Thursday April 8, 3:00 am ET
Jonathan Ringel, Fulton County Daily Report

A North Carolina grand jury has indicted Atlanta lawyers F. Edwin Hallman Jr. and H. King Buttermore III -- along with their firm, Decker, Hallman, Barber & Briggs -- for the unauthorized practice of law.

ADVERTISEMENT

var lrec_target="_top";
var lrec_URL = new Array();
lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=126qm4ea8/M=283915.4687441.5846993.1383221/D=fin/S=95728752:LREC/EXP=1082826244/A=2075539/R=0/id=flashurl/SIG=132u2qgkd/*http://www.cybertrader.com/offer/offerdirect.asp?offer=YHOREFER&property=finance&area=news&url=/";
var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";
var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/cy/cybertrader/calendar_300x250.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';
var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=126qm4ea8/M=283915.4687441.5846993.1383221/D=fin/S=95728752:LREC/EXP=1082826244/A=2075539/R=1/id=altimgurl/SIG=132u2qgkd/*http://www.cybertrader.com/offer/offerdirect.asp?offer=YHOREFER&property=finance&area=news&url=/";
var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/cy/cybertrader/calendar_300x250.gif";
var lrec_width = 300;
var lrec_height = 250;

Cleveland County District Attorney William C. Young said the misdemeanor charges could result in probated sentences for Hallman and Buttermore and an order that the firm return fees paid by Gardner-Webb University, a 3,500-student Baptist school in Boiling Springs, N.C.

While a bitter internal dispute at the university seems to have prompted the charges, the action raises the question of how far law firms can go in serving clients in states where they are not members of the bar.

The firm in 2002 conducted an investigation that largely cleared M. Christopher White, Gardner-Webb's president, of wrongdoing for ordering that a basketball player's grade point average be recalculated in a way that made the student eligible for the season. The firm's report, however, led the school's board of trustees to reassign two faculty members who had been critical of White's actions -- moves that led several faculty members to resign in protest. White later resigned.

The National Collegiate Athletic Association last month cited White's grade change order, among other things, in its decision to put Gardner-Webb on a three-year probation.

In response to calls to Hallman and Buttermore, the firm issued a statement to the Daily Report declaring that its lawyers conducted interviews and provided a report to the board of trustees at the school -- but did not practice law.

"It is difficult for us to understand what is motivating these actions against us," the statement read. "If former university employees, or those unhappy with the steps taken by the Board of Trustees, are disgruntled and seeking some form of retribution against this firm, their ire is misguided."

THE CHIEF ACCUSER

Decker Hallman's chief accuser is O. Max Gardner III, 58, a former Gardner-Webb trustee and a bankruptcy attorney in Shelby, N.C. His brother, John M. Gardner, a former trial judge, was one of the faculty members who left in protest after the board reassigned White's critics. Both are grandsons of the school's namesakes, former North Carolina Gov. O. Max Gardner and his wife, Fay Webb Gardner.

In telephone interviews this week, Max Gardner said he "was not impressed at all" by the Decker Hallman report.

He said he filed a complaint against the firm with the North Carolina State Bar and copied it to the district attorney because he objected to the lawyers' "aggressive tactics" against critics of the trustees and White. He also said it is a lawyer's duty to report the unauthorized practice of law.

Hallman, 58, is a graduate of the University of Georgia School of Law and is a former regional counsel of the U.S. Department of Energy. He is a member of the State Bar of Georgia, but not of North Carolina. Buttermore, 59, is a graduate of Vanderbilt University School of Law, a former dean of student life at Georgia State University, and a member of the Tennessee and Georgia bars, but not North Carolina.

Gardner cited letters sent by Decker Hallman lawyers to critics of White and the trustees that he said show the lawyers' unauthorized practice of law in North Carolina.

The firm became a villain to some by representing the trustees who had retained White and reassigned the faculty critics.

Philip C. Williams, one of the faculty members who was reassigned after the firm presented its report, wrote in a response published on the Web, "It is clear the attorneys were biased" against White's critics.

The lawyers' letters defending their report and their representation ultimately became evidence that Gardner used against the firm. One letter by Hallman tells a critic that, "As attorneys for the University, we have a duty to respond to the University's concerns. ... We represent the University. ... We stand by our legal advice given to the Trustees."

Gardner acknowledged that a lawyer's national business opens up a gray area when he has clients in a state where he doesn't have a license. But referring to the letters cited in his complaint, he said, "That's definitely practicing law."

LETTER OF CAUTION SENT

The North Carolina State Bar's Authorized Practice Committee appeared to agree. On July 31, it issued a "Letter of Caution" to Thomas J. Dimmock, a Raleigh, N.C., lawyer who represented Hallman, Buttermore and the firm before the committee.

The letter said the firm's report to the university went beyond an investigation into the alleged NCAA and school violations and "also outlined and advised the Board concerning the University's potential legal liabilities."

The caution letter cited other letters and communications in which Hallman or Buttermore provided legal assessments for the trustees.

"It is the unauthorized practice of law for any persons other than licensed members of the North Carolina State Bar to practice law in the State of North Carolina," the letter said. "The practice of law includes preparation of legal documents, engaging in legal advice or counsel, acting as attorney, or furnishing the services as an attorney. N.C. Gen. Stat. § 84-2.1 & 4.

"Your clients held themselves out as attorneys for the University, both to the Board of Trustees and to outside parties," the letter continued. "The Committee concluded that the conduct of your clients constituted the unauthorized practice of law in violation of these statutes."

PUNISHING OUT-OF-STATE LAWYERS

Legal ethics experts said that it's not uncommon for laypeople pretending to be lawyers to suffer criminal penalties for practicing law without a license. But they said it's rare for members of the bar in one state to get in trouble -- not to mention be indicted -- for working in another state.

Litigators usually get temporary permission to practice law in another state from judges handling a particular case. And in legal proceedings that take place out of court, the issue does not come up very often, the experts added, noting that definitions about what "practicing law" means can be vague.

"I think a lot of it goes on, and no one does anything about it," said Paul Haskell, who teaches professional responsibility at the University of North Carolina School of Law.

But given the North Carolina Bar's letter of caution regarding Decker Hallman, Haskell added, "They got them dead to rights."

Perhaps. But the North Carolina State Bar's "Lawyer Handbook" offers a vague definition of a letter of caution. It states that the committee has the power to issue a letter of caution "in cases wherein probable cause is not established but the activities of the respondent are deemed to be inappropriate ... ."

D. Erik Albright of Smith Moore, which is now representing Decker Hallman, declined comment, except to refer to the firm's statement.

That statement denied the lawyers practiced law in North Carolina, stating that the trustees "had separate local counsel available and present at the time of all meetings to advise it on legal issues in North Carolina law."

The university's local counsel, Fred A. Flowers of Shelby, N.C.'s Flowers, Martin, Moore & Ditz, could not be reached to discuss the case. David A. Johnson, deputy counsel to the North Carolina Bar, said the authorized practice committee sends about 100 caution letters a year -- but only about 10 go to out-of-state lawyers for allegedly practicing in North Carolina.

He summarizes a letter of caution like this: "Basically it says, don't do it again."

The indictments were handed down by the Cleveland County grand jury on March 15, but the next move is hard to predict as neither Young, the district attorney, nor Albright, the firm's defense attorney, will discuss the case.

IN TROUBLE IN GEORGIA?

Hallman and Buttermore's fate in Georgia is unclear as well. Paula J. Frederick, the Georgia Bar's deputy general counsel, said Georgia lawyers who get in trouble in other jurisdictions can be investigated by this state's bar.

"Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't," said Frederick of the bar's investigative panel. She said sometimes the panel decides that the lawyers have been "punished enough" in the other jurisdiction.

She acknowledged that the definition of "practicing law" can be tricky, noting that the Georgia Supreme Court is weighing whether to adopt an American Bar Association recommendation. It would absolve out-of-state lawyers who do temporary work in another state as long as they don't set up a permanent practice in the other state.

Steven J. Kaczkowski, the Georgia Bar counsel who handles unauthorized practice of law issues, said the question is controlled by O.C.G.A. § 15-19-50, which states that practicing law includes "the giving of any legal advice."

Given that definition, Kaczkowski said, "Every case is different."