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Originally posted by: Oh, it's me
"Hello all, enjoy it while you can but you conspiracy theory quacks will have to go out and find something else to complain about after next week!"

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You mean SFT will be gone THAT soon!  Wow!  That's sooner than I would have thought!  Thanks for the encouraging comment!

Shelby Comin' Round the Mountain...

To meet the oncoming train head on!

Might have to nominate you to Webster!

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Originally posted by: Otherside
"Well, it appears "the plan" is working. Just check the "Departures" thread. There is still only one (1) member of the College of Science and Technology listed as leaving. At the rate faculty in other colleges are leaving, CoST will soon be the dominant college. Arts and Letters, any comments???? See the "Real Issues" thread.

Otherside "

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Originally posted by: Salesperson
"And you were going to respond to those very thoughtful comments you were in such a hurry to receive when?"

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Originally posted by: Flash Gordon
"Talk of plans and conspiracies give too much credit for understanding and foresight. If you look at the areas where USM has been very strong in recent history it's fine arts, liberal arts, nursing, criminal justice, education and polymer science (few UG students). Those are the areas that have attracted undergraduates. Really bright high school kids tend to like English, music, theater, and math/science. We don't have engineering or architecture or pharmacy which tend to appeal to the math/science kids. Using the Honors College we have attracted bright kids using liberal arts and fine arts. Our nursing program has been a big draw as has criminal justice.

If you look at what is falling apart after only two years, you can see that shifting the emphasis to science will guarantee our second class status."

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Rumors, theories =Quacks!

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Originally posted by: Oh, it's me
"Rumors, theories =Quacks!"

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:quote:

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Originally posted by: Oh, it's me
"  I'll be honest.  I like the job that ST is doing.  That's my observation and you guys have yours as well.  I shouldn't have stated that ST would be off the hook after next week.  I don't know if he was in the wrong or not.  We don't know the facts but they will be aired next week.  The hearing will be fair.  My problem is that I think a lot of people rushed to judgment extremely fast without knowing the facts.  Not everyone against Thames is stating things that sound like conspiracy theories but the overwhelmingly majority of the anti-Thames side has done quite a bit of that.  I respect the other side's opinion but I cannot stand it when I hear people say, "Well, I heard from so-and-so that....", or, "Somebody told me that...".    I hear a lot of claims that are backed with nothing but hearsay and that's what really irks me.  An early example is when Thames streamlined the colleges from nine to five I kept hearing some nursing students claim how they wouldn't remain accredited and that nursing degrees from Southern Miss will be reduced to the equivalent of a high school diploma.  Well, we all know that was a load of crap.  Some people will always hate change not matter what and will be scared of it.  That’s human nature but instead of looking in to the facts they jumped to conclusions and made outrageous claims than ended up being way off.  The department received new accreditation which is good for ten years and most of the time when accreditation is renewed it's usually only for five.  If you want some more examples hearsay all you have to do is look around this site.   I'm waiting for the hearing before I make my decision.  This will be a fair hearing with Justice Anderson running the show.  Again, I'm not saying that Thames was right or wrong, I really don't know.  If it comes out that he was wrong then obviously my approval of Thames will be altered negatively.  If you have a claim back it up with proof or shut the hell up.  "

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I appreciate this more detailed posting. In response, I'll state my case. You say "We don't know the facts but they will be aired next week. " I say that I definetly have enough facts to substantiate my opinion on the issue as a student, a supporter of USM and a concerned supporter of education in Mississippi. I have observed Thames's divisiveness as a campus leader for the past two years. I have seen respected faculty members seek "greener pastures". I know that I owe my education--all of the knowledge and experience that I have paid for and gained in my time at USM despite this divisive administration--to the experience and ability of talented professors and instructors in my field and others. I know that these (supposedly) valued members of the USM community have repeatedly been ignored, defamed and essentially written off by the administration since (and before) Thames was installed as president of the university. I know that the Thames admin. has attacked the student press for criticism of policy decisions. I (and the rest of the world) know that the decision to initiate termination proceedings against Glamser and Stringer was made without ANY attention to the fate of the students who were doing research and taking classes under the two professors. These factors ARE NOT in the best interest of the students, and have not only outraged the faculty, student body and alumni of USM, but have also brought the attention (and criticism) of the national and global academic community. And rightly so. Dr. Thames has proven himself to be a divisive and ineffective leader. One cannot lead without followers, and Dr. Thames has lost whatever edge he may have had as a candidate for the presidency of USM. By his negligent and destructive actions, he has shamed not only USM, but the College Board which appointed him and the higher education system of the state of Mississippi... and me.

We'll have some more details next week, sure. But the facts stand regardless, and I challenge anyone to maintain that Dr. Thames has supported the best interests of USM and its students throughout his tenure as USM president. I also challenge those who have the authority to remove Dr. Thames from his current position at USM and initiate a fair national search for a new president so that our university may begin to recover from this bulldozer of mismanagement.

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Originally posted by: Oh, it's me
"  I'll be honest.  I like the job that ST is doing.   . . . .  If you have a claim back it up with proof or shut the hell up.  "

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The nursing students were stating their feelings and many of them were afraid and disappointed -- that is a fair thing. No one mistakes feelings for facts. There are ways to make "change" that can reassure people that you have concern for them. But that was not the way the President chose to work -- he chose to conduct the change in a way that was least reassuring and bluntly brutal. So as far as i am concerned, he set himself up for the anger that followed. People don't simply fear change -- that is the administration's line. They fear change they don't understand and have no part in. They fear chnage conducted be people they don't trust. This administration has done nothing to preserve trust and everything to prove that it don't care about trust -- it cares only about the rest of us simply getting in line and following.  That's bad leadership and poor management.

But if we had gotten in line and followed we'd have an incredibly repressive faculty handbook not to mention an alcohol policy from hell.

There are lots of facts --

It is a fact that this administration fires people brutally - without thanks for service rendered or the usual civilities that human relatnioships personal and prfessional need.

It is a fact that this administration has a record of fudging numbers in terms of money and students

It is a fact that this administration has used things like the FAR, the alcohol policy, the new handbook orginally to be written by Hanbury -- to change the rules of the road to make it easier to fire faculty.

It is a fact that some in this administration have fudged their academic histories.

It is a fact that it fired two tenured faculty in the middle of an academic semester -- and unless they murdered or raped someone, there was no reason to force them out of the classrooom at that point. That was hardly serving the students. That was hardly due process.

It is a fact that Shelby tried to set up the hearing to disadvantage the professors -- that's why the AG finally had to step in.

There are plenty more to cite but it is boring when the facts are listed in so many public places (See the Faculty Senate's list, see the AAUP's list -- both public). 

Sorry -- can't go with you that enough facts aren't out there to make a decision. They are there. Feel free to admire Shelby, feel free to defend his tactics. Don't play the pretense that there aren't enough facts please. There are only not enough facts if one persists in trying to prop up a man who is tyranical, rash, and petty.

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Originally posted by: present professor
"....  Don't play the pretense that there aren't enough facts please. There are only not enough facts if one persists in trying to prop up a man who is tyranical, rash, and petty."

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Originally posted by: Oh, it's me
"  I'll be honest.  I like the job that ST is doing.  That's my observation and you guys have yours as well.  I shouldn't have stated that ST would be off the hook after next week.  I don't know if he was in the wrong or not.  We don't know the facts but they will be aired next week.  The hearing will be fair.  My problem is that I think a lot of people rushed to judgment extremely fast without knowing the facts.  

Oh It's Me must not read the paper. Faculty Senate published an open letter to the president listing all of the issues that resulted in the no confidence vote by both senate and faculty. I for one think SOME of the changes he made will benefit USM. So for me it isn't WHAT he did but HOW he did it that destroyed trust and in destroying this university. Oh It's Me, the outcome of the hearings WILL CHANGE NOTHING of peoples opinion of president's Thames ability to lead and manage USM.
It's going to be very interesting, and confusing to many, if he wins at the hearings and yet his support continues to diminish. We are just trying to inform you of what is going on, Oh It's Me, so that the shock won't be so great.
http://www.sparkimg.com/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Otherside

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Originally posted by: Salesperson
"I'm afraid that I disagree with you, Otherside, that there is a "plan".  There is a stated goal of $100 million in grant funding and 20,000 students to be accomplished during Shelby's reign.  There is, however,  no "plan" to achieve that goal - that, in fact, is a huge part of the problem.  These dome administrators are not strategic planners; they are not leaders; and they are not even competent managers.  They are opportunists who shoot from the hip.  They create crises and try to glean benefit from the fallout.   They confuse "entrepreneurial" with corner cutting.  I agree with Present Professor that competent, visionary administrators could have (and may still be able to) work with the colleges and faculty to achieve the goals.  Must clean out the dome first."

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Originally posted by: Crystal Ball
"I was getting my undergraduate degree (yes, in the liberal arts!) back in the mid-70s and I remember hearing about Nova University for the first time back then.  I had two low-level administrators getting what we called at the time "mail order degrees"  at the doctoral level from there.  30 years later and accredited, Nova University is still not taken seriously by academics.  To allow Thames, Dvorak, Hudson, and crew to turn the potential of this university into an internet diploma mill like Phoenix is a travesty of the worst degree.  Although I have complete confidence like so many others on this board that professors Glamser and Stringer will be reinstated after next week's hearings, that is no longer the most critical issue this university is dealing with.  Senior administration has to go."

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It does -- although at the moment I'm taking the following odds:

The "verdict" is rendered 

Shelby is immediately fired                               no chance

Shelby survives but is quietly moved out by July         even

Shelby Serves his full term                                        1:4

The fact that the verdict is likely to be rendered after graduation doesn't help.

We need to really publicize over and over again that things are so broken they can't be fixed. The longer this administration stays in power, the closer we come to meltdown. . . 

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Originally posted by: Otherside
" Googler, How does Mississippi Institute of Technology sound to you. MIT of the NEW south. Otherside "

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Originally posted by: Oh, it's me
"  I'll be honest.  I like the job that ST is doing.  ... My problem is that I think a lot of people rushed to judgment extremely fast without knowing the facts."

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Below is a quotation from a book review written about Joachim Fest's biography, Speer: The Final Verdict, presented under the header "He understood, and he did nothing."

"in a political sense, Speer is the real criminal of Nazi Germany, for he, more than any other, represented that fatal philosophy which has made havoc of Germany and nearly shipwrecked the world. Albert Speer with his intelligence diagnosed the nature of the Nazi government and policy, but he did nothing."

One of the most insightful books I have ever read is another biography of Speer, written by Gitta Sereny. The title is Albert Speer: His Battle with Truth. It's a huge book, but I've read it twice now, in an attempt to understand the inner workings of people who choose evil. My initial foray into that line of thinking began many, many years ago when Shelby Thames was still second in command under Dr. Lucas. I watched then as people were able to rise in certain administrative slots, while otheres were barred, based on deceit, favoritism, and a variety of other rationale totally unrelated to academic quality. I saw forgery, plaigarism, personal use of university funds, and blatant imcompetence ignored, swept under the proverbial rug, or even rewarded.

    I had never given a lot of thought to philosophy before, particularly the idea of formulating and articulating a personal philosophy, but this troubling time was a turning point in my life. I had young children, and I wanted to bring them up to be good people. I also wanted them to have the opportunity for personal success. When I saw the very antithesis of what I believed to be right behavior rewarded materially, I gave a lot of thought to how I would talk to my children about these things. During one of my nightly rampages about the latest goings on with regard to Shelby and Co., my partner asked a question that helped direct my thinking, reading, and eventually my ability to articulate my personal philosophy a little better. He said, "Well, do you want to be xxxxxx?"

     The more I contemplated that question, the more clearly I saw that my own personal vision of success centers around who I am not what I get. I hope I have imparted that concept to my children as well. I can also observe the extent to which what you might possibly get influences the behavior of many people. My daughter spoke to this very clearly a few weeks ago regarding the outcome of the current USM crisis. She said, "I'm afraid there will be a while lot more Enrons in the future if the administration gets away with this. Students are learning from all of this. I hope they learn that good can prevail." I hope so, too.

     When I read the posts from people who close their eyes to what has happened, who repeatedly talk about "facts" that are all but growing on the trees around them, who persistently insist on giving SFT the benefit of whatever doubt could be left, or who just want to be left alone in the comfort of whatever income they can get if they just toe the party line, I want to tell them to go read Gitta Sereny's book. We all make choices every day about who we are. The Speer biography by Sereny is an eloquent portrayal of a man who spent most of his adult life trying to reconcile and justify who he believed he should have been with who he was. The title of the book is instructive. Many of us battle "with" truth rather than for truth, because discovering truth almost always requires some personal investment in action, perhaps some sacrifice. Frank and Gary know that well. Others have discovered truth and walked away from it, shut and locked the door on it, denied it, contradicted it.

     It may seem a little hysterical to compare Shelby Thames and his little people with the Nazi powers, but the concept of right behavior is important from the smallest to the largest actions. I saw many people I would have regarded as ethical become less so over time, and it always happened in small increments, seemingly subtle ways. Little gifts given and accepted led to larger favors expected. Extra time off without payroll accounting, and in return that person covers for another who is out shopping on company time. Little stuff. But little seeds grow into big plants if nurtured.

     This has been much too long, but as the time draws nearer I am very concerned about what will happen to the many students, faculty, and supporters who believe that right behavior can win. I want there to be good lessons learned when this is all over.

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Originally posted by: Crystal Ball
"No offense, PP, but it looks like your last post had a meltdown! And if memory serves me correctly I posted a month ago something similar and you chewed me out!!!"

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It did have a meltdown -- I guess I still don't quite understand how to make the spacer work . . .

I think I "chewed you out" (sorry, didn't realize I was that harsh) because I sensed that underlying your posting of odds was a sense that there was not much we can do (and I do apologize post hoc if I got that wrong)

I think I'm trying (badly) to signal that right now, unless we really do something visible to affect the Board, Shelby might survive.

This means a great deal to all of us on this list, obviously, because we know how much more damage can be done in the next two years.

Beyond that, there is a long line of very exposed necks stretched out and just waiting for the axe to fall.

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Originally posted by: tomcat
"Your comparison is appropriate.  You are teaching your daughter well.  I too have read the Sereny book.  It is excellent.  You should also read Speer's own books to get even more understanding of his mind.  I had not read the first book you mention, but would like to.  Can you provide more details on it (title, copyright, etc.)?  "

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Albert Speer: The Final Verdict. published by Harcourt, 2002. ISBN 0151005567 Written of Joachim Fest, translated by Ewald Osers and Alexandra Dring. The quotation was from a review on the Amazon.com web site.

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Originally posted by: Otherside
" Googler, How does Mississippi Institute of Technology sound to you. MIT of the NEW south. Otherside "

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How about Shelby's Hattiesburg Institute of Technology. Our name is ....