Where do we go from here?

Date: Apr 30, 2004

Where do we go from here?

Date: Apr 30, 2004

You are asking a reasonable and legitimate question, and it's something we all should ponder, and you deserve thoughtful answers, not nitpicking your spelling errors.

For one thing, a good scholar/teacher/researcher does not necessarily make a good administrator. The skills are different. The president's job, really, is to bring in money without selling the university's soul in the process. The one thing that is probably critical for USM is to have somebody they can trust as a human being, as well as respect as an academic. A lot of people on this board love Dr. Cotten, but at this point at true outsider would probably be best. My question is -- who would want this job at this point?

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
"What type of President would the faculty accept? "

I will take a stab at this, even though I am no longer on the faculty at USM. I will list some of the major criteria for effective university leadership as I see them.

1. A person of admirable intellect, with broad-reaching interests and a respect for all of the disciplines that make up a real university.

2. A person who chooses the most qualified person for positions within the university, and who opens the search for those positions to professionals throughout the nation.

3. A person who respects other people, be they students, faculty, other administrators, alumni, board members, or the general public. Even when those persons hold opposing views, the respect is of the person and that person's right to free thought and expression.

4. A person who is above reproach in matters of integrity. This includes fair and equitable treatment of all members of the university community with no attempt to buy favor or punish dissent.

5. A person who works cooperatively with all constituencies of the university community to affirm the institution's mission, set its goals, and develop strategies to achieve those goals.

6. A person who works openly for the best interests of the university, who does not operate in secret.

7. A person to whom loyalty to right principles means much more than loyalty to a person or a position.

8. A person who does not deal in favors, find ways to skirt the legal requirements of university business, or misuse the resources of office to reward personal friends.

9. A person who is adept financially and is able to maintain the long term fiscal health of the university.

10. A person who inspires, who commands respect because that respect has been earned.

11. A person who is able to lead because she or he possesses vision and the qualities of a leader.

This is a good beginning.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: JustAsking
" I will take a stab at this, even though I am no longer on the faculty at USM. I will list some of the major , be they students, faculty, <snip>A person who is able to lead because she or he possesses vision and the qualities of a leader. This is a good beginning."

Beautifully said. Perfect.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

I have heard Dr. Cotton's name mentioned by several people. I have met Dr. Cotton several times, and I have little doubt that he is an accomplished scholar.

But, at this point I do not think that we need "one of our own". Had Thames been an outsider...I do not believe we would have seen the passion that has been displayed in this situation would have been envoked.

I have no list of names, but I would like to see someone who has a growth vision simular to Thames, but a little more of a diplomat. I do not want to see us go back to the leadership style of Dr Lucas. Dr Lucas was a fine man, but I believe his vision for Southern Miss was limited, and growth was held back by some of his decisions.

Fire Shelby · Status: Offline

quote:
Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
"I have heard Dr. Cotton's name mentioned by several people. I have met Dr. Cotton several times, and I have little doubt that he is an accomplished scholar. But, at this point I do not think that we need "one of our own". Had Thames been an outsider...I do not believe we would have seen the passion that has been displayed in this situation would have been envoked. I have no list of names, but I would like to see someone who has a growth vision simular to Thames, but a little more of a diplomat. I do not want to see us go back to the leadership style of Dr Lucas. Dr Lucas was a fine man, but I believe his vision for Southern Miss was limited, and growth was held back by some of his decisions. "

Lanny, even though I read some of the ugly comments on your forum about the people who post on my forum, and even though I read a post on your forum that wished to line the professors up and kick them in the genitals, and even though I read posts on your board stating that the discontent profs at USM are all dope-smoking pinko commie liberals, I have to admit that you seem above most of the people who post on your forum. I hope my judgment is not premature about you--I hope your questions are grounded in sincerity.

We have to conduct a TRUE national search next time--hopefully this summer. The next president has quite a task in front of him or her. I know you have ridiculed our statements about this in the past, but Shelby Thames has destroyed the colleges he personally thinks are irrelevant. The next president must have a record of fairness in dealing with all colleges and departments.

Again, I think people here have been very decent to you, considering that your forum has attacked many of them. (Honestly, I had never heard of Eagle Talk until yesterday.) Perhaps your forum would extend the same hospitality to Fire Shelby members, should they decide to visit--pike eagle included--not that they will visit.

It looks like the discussions you are having here are much more informative than the ones I have seen on Eagle Talk. It's good to have dialogue between two sides--sadly, that isn't encouraged at your forum.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
"
I admit I am a supporter of Dr Thames. I am not a blind supporter that believes that he dose no wrong. He has made plenty of mistakes. I don't care about any of that at this point. ...
"

First, for me to understand how to communicate with you, I need to know why you are
"a supporter of Dr. Thames". This is not a religion, to be believed with bind faith; it must be based on evidence. I too support Dr. Thames “AS A PLOYMER SCIENTIST AND POLITICIAN” because he does this well. I DO NOT support him as an administrator because, although he has some good ideas, HE DOESN’T HAVE THE SKILL TO LEAD AND COMMUNICATE WITH PEOPLE. Do I really need to provide you with the EVIDENCE for my belief of this?

So here is the problem. If some people are used to following leaders without questioning, and some leaders are NOT used to being questioned or justifying their position, then when this culture meets the academic culture, where debate is the natural method to reach truth, what you now see happening is what results.

Isn't it clear what has to be done. It isn't rocket science.

Otherside

Date: Apr 30, 2004

Okay, Lanny, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here (in response to Fire Shelby's call for us to try to unite for the common good of USM).

Best practices at most top-notch research universities call for shared governance by all stakeholders. This means that, before making unilateral decisions with far-reaching consequences such as stripping deans of their positions and consolidating colleges, ideas are soliciting from ALL who have a stake in the matter. As Anne Wallace so eloquently pointed out in her superb editorial in the Student Printz on Tuesday, this process IS cumbersome and time-consuming. Yet, when you finish, you have an agreement that all factions can get behind. Much like the settlement that was announced today, everyone gets a little and everyone gives up a little. This is the way the best universities are run, it's what the USM administration should aspire to be.

Talk of disbanding Faculty Senate is the wrong way to approach this. A good president would take the criticism given to him and consider it...not plot behind her or his faculty members' backs. A good president would not be threatened with criticism. I attended a speech given by Donna Shalala (President of University of Miami) at Vanderbilt University recently, and she said just that--she gets paid the big bucks to take the criticism and move on. I can't imagine Donna Shalala monitoring emails and publicly attacking her students' integrity. It just isn't done at top-tier institutions.

If USM wants to move to the next level, then it needs to find a president with those sorts of credentials and expectations...someone from the OUTSIDE who isn't beholden to MS politicians and board members. Someone that everyone could rally around. I don't know who that someone is, but I do know that there must be at least a few talented administrators (Don Cotten comes to mind, though he isn't exactly an outsider) who would be up to the challenge. And get rid of the KY Mafia, for goodness sakes! The nepotism in the Dome is not to be believed right now.

Does this answer your question?

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
"I have heard Dr. Cotton's name mentioned by several people. I have met Dr. Cotton several times, and I have little doubt that he is an accomplished scholar. But, at this point I do not think that we need "one of our own". Had Thames been an outsider...I do not believe we would have seen the passion that has been displayed in this situation would have been envoked. I have no list of names, but I would like to see someone who has a growth vision simular to Thames, but a little more of a diplomat. I do not want to see us go back to the leadership style of Dr Lucas. Dr Lucas was a fine man, but I believe his vision for Southern Miss was limited, and growth was held back by some of his decisions. "

I think that we can all agree that growth is fine: perhaps given the econmics of the mondern public university, it is necessary.

The question is how do we balance growth with the content of the university itself: to teach students to think well; to expose them to the kind of learning in many fields that they might not otherwise have; to help them fulfill their roles as adults who are smart, have goals, and are interesting to be around and interested in the world around them. And of course to research: to create new knowlege, to synthesize what is already known with what is new; to turn knowlege into things are benefit people.

Because knowlege is our core value, it is important that it be revered. I suspect that Dr. Lucas needed to turn the university inward for many years to grow first its intellectual and ethical foundation -- to establish the basic principles that would provide the energy and drive for its growth. I suspect you feel that that period may have lasted too long, but when I look at the numbers and at the growth of infrastrcture -- the university's growth during his time was remarkable.

I hear in your thinking a desire to make sure that the public university (USM) stays connected to the world and not simply become the proverbial "ivory tower." I am not sure that really could happen these days, but I understand that concern. In my experience, the very nature of a public university makes that almost impossible. In fact, it is almost the case that the public university needs to be more aware of the less tangible aspects of what it does: to remind students who are focused very closely on their post graduate careers that knowlege is at its most powerful when one comes to it from love and not from obligation.

I work in a very applied field -- but what fuels me isn't just the doing of it . . . but the why of it. It is knowing that I can spend my life in this field trying to fins the why that keeps me going, keeps me making new things and asking new questions. I think that is the same for the scientist, the artist, or the business man (or woman).

Sorry to have talked so long. I think it would be productive for faculty and folks who love the university but might not be in it to talk more about these things.

Not easy -- but if we did we might very well wind up with the President that we all might find exciting and unifying . . .

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
"Had Thames been an outsider...I do not believe we would have seen the passion that has been displayed in this situation would have been envoked."

I agree. Thames came into office already equipped with a lot of enemies. Had he been an outsider, it would have been the 3rd or 4th year of his presidency before folks really had a clue what an inept leader he is.

Leading a university is a lot like herding cats. It takes a special mix of vision & people skills to do it.

What makes a good university president? There are as many answers to that as there are good university presidents. But I've met a lot of them & the best seem to have a certain charisma that most folks recognize. You want to be on their team & follow their vision. Thames, unfortunately, has the charisma of a platyhelminth. (Not that some folks don't think flatworms are cute, y'understand?)

Date: Apr 30, 2004

Excellent questions and comments. I think that I may have the answer to this one:

Dr. Aubrey Lucas.

I know that this has been mentioned by others on this board, and I have to agree with them 100%. Dr. Lucas was the president when I was a USM student, and I believe that his administration was a stellar one.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

He had NO interest in bringing faculty on board with his vision... nothing at all. They were always left out, in silence, until their jobs were being affected.

At Delta State we can see a new president who is awesome in getting the faculty involved in the process. Way to go! You are LUCKY!

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: BogusBoy
"He had NO interest in bringing faculty on board with his vision... nothing at all. They were always left out, in silence, until their jobs were being affected. At Delta State we can see a new president who is awesome in getting the faculty involved in the process. Way to go! You are LUCKY!"

Thames, that is, since 2002. Sorry, needed to identify that.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

First of all EagleTalk.net

EagleTalk.net is the largest community for Southern Miss athletics on the Internet. We get anywhere from 900,000 to 1.3M hits per month. We have more than 2,500 registered members at EagleTalk.net. We are primarily a Sports Information site. When you go to the front page, you will find no stories or information that is not in some way related to Southern Miss sports. We do not take editorial positions on issues that are non-sports related. If I post an opinion on the message boards, it's my opinion. I don't claim to be a journalist...after a review of my spelling you can probably guess why. Unlike some I don't claim to be non-biased when I clearly am not.

In our message board section, we offer a Roundtable board that is used for all topics non-sports related. You or anyone else is free to discuss the issues there. We ask that you do not start topics on non-sports issues on the main EagleTalk board. Any non-sports thread will be moved to the Round Table. You can review all board rules under the links and resources section that you will find in the left hand menu. I can't promise you that your views will be well received...especially if you use a "fire Thames" type moniker. If I am not mistaken, several of your members have asked permission to post, and I have granted it.

As for my respect and support of Thames.

I respect and admire the vision that Thames has (or had) for Southern Miss. I respect what he has accomplished building the Polymer Science Program into a world-renowned program. I had hopes that we could accomplish this with more of our programs under him.

I am not blind, and although some of you would argue, I am not stupid. I am probably more educated than many of you believe. Does the previous statement mean my resume may be investigated? But, back to the point...I realize that the period of Dr Thames effectiveness as an administrator is over. If he remains president, it will be a two-year period of treading water...if he resigns now a search will begin.

I just really fear that if we bring in any president that demands accountability that we're going to be right back here in two years having the same discussion. I know the value of a good professor in college. There are a number of Proffs here at Southern Miss, that can never be paid what they are worth because of their value as educators, mentors and researchers. But, at the same time there is also a number of educators at Southern Miss that in reality aren't worth a fraction of what they are paid. Remember it is very difficult for many of us "working stiffs" out here to relate to the world in which many academics live. I am not going to name names, but I had classes at Southern Miss I should have been paid to sit though because the professors were so bad. At the same time I can't tell you the educational value that Professors such as Dr. Alvin Williams, Dr. Bill Smith and Dr. Robert Booth provided to me.

I am in a world where I have to produce on a daily basis to be rewarded...whether is right or wrong....the threory of tenure as it is viewed by a large number is not highly looked upon. The reason being is that many view a tenured professor as somone who can do what they want with no fear of accountability. And it is clear from this hearing that that may not be too far fetched.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

What do we want? Community. Honesty. Integrity. Respect for principles. Fair treatment of all--not just friends and relatives. A feeling that academics are truly the reason we exist as a university. AND a person that will understand that the person he/she wants for a job may not always be the one suited to further the best interests of the system.

I cannot imagine working in an environment where emails are scanned and offices are bugged. This saddens me beyond belief.

BTW...I've always been a passionate supporter of the athletic endeavors (season tickets for 30+ years), but I don't know at this point whether I will cheer on my eagles again. I'm just confused and disillusioned with the system that seemingly endorses this type of treatment of individuals. I fear that my USM is gone.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

Stephen Judd

I admire your love for Dr. Lucas.

We all respect such a fine "gentleman."

I know Dr. Lucas very well.

Now something to ponder....

There is one problem here in Camelot. I had hoped Aubrey would have the courage to speak up. He didn't. He has not. I suppose he will take it to the grave as his Fine Arts is driven to the ground.

When the board was at a 6-6 tied impasse on the first vote for SFT, two years ago, a certain "behavioral pattern" became a concern for some IHL board members. I do not believe this is a secret now, is it?

I think all the women were concerned. An inquiry (and I use that word loosely) was conducted by the men or someone and I was told that Dr. Lucas was personally asked: "what happened in 1981 at USM Gulf Park when Dr. Thames had to step down..., is it true."

With all due respect, I am told Dr. Lucas responded: "I don't know anything about it."

Folks, if Dr. Lucas knew, and he was in charge, then we would not have a Fire Shelby board and we would not be here.

Just a history lesson in where to go from here.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
" I realize that the period of Dr Thames effectiveness as an administrator is over. If he remains president, it will be a two-year period of treading water...if he resigns now a search will begin.

You might want to clue other members of Eagle Talk into this fact. It hasn't seemed to sink into to most of their brains yet.

I just really fear that if we bring in any president that demands accountability that we're going to be right back here in two years having the same discussion.

What sort of accountability are you talking about? Be specific.

But, at the same time there is also a number of educators at Southern Miss that in reality aren't worth a fraction of what they are paid.

Who are they? How long has it been since you were at USM? Are you sure these "deadbeats" are still there?

I am in a world where I have to produce on a daily basis to be rewarded...whether is right or wrong....the threory of tenure as it is viewed by a large number is not highly looked upon. The reason being is that many view a tenured professor as somone who can do what they want with no fear of accountability. And it is clear from this hearing that that may not be too far fetched. "

Explain to me how professors get away with "not producing." I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that. Most of the profs I know spend countless hours advising students, grading papers, producing their own research, attending committee meetings, etc. etc. How is that "not producing?"

And what happened in the hearing to make you think that tenured professors believe they have no accountability? Academic freedom and no accountability are not synonymous, and no one ever said that they were.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

RE: Real Issues

Forgive me for once again bumping this post from Otherside's Real Issues thread but it seems appropriate. Lanny, from one "Business" person to another...

Otherside posed a number of questions (in bold) that he or she speculated Roy Klumb might ask. Here is my response to those questions.

Let me start with a couple of up-front caveats. I am always leery of building logical arguments on false premises. Although I would like to think that many of the questions you raise are too ludicrous to argue, I have read a great deal of the material on the IHL website. From that reading, I believe that many people, including some board members, might ask questions the way that you have. So, for caveat #1, I am going to assume that each question's premise is legitimate. Next, Economic Development at the University of Southern Mississippi is housed in the College of Business (now CBED). Business is my background and so that is the vantage point from which I will discuss all points. There are people from the arts, sciences, education/psychology, and health who are better able to discuss their perspectives. Although economic development is not always (or even often) coupled with business, the joining can make sense. Entrepreneurship is starting businesses. Management is operating business. International development is the globalization of businesses. So, caveat #2 is that my perspective is limited in scope to that of a business person. Finally, a discussion of these issues cannot be conducted in isolation of the complete disarray of the university at this time. Whatever might have prompted the IHL to have put Shelby Thames in charge of USM two years ago, whatever lofty goals President Thames might have had when he took over the presidency, and whatever confidence some of us might have had in his leadership at the beginning are things that are no longer relevant. Caveat #3 is that, from my perspective, any future scenario of success at USM cannot include the current administrative team in the dome.

1) This state can’t support so many institutions of higher learning (Univ.s and C. Colleges) so institutions must find their own sources of funds.

The fact that Mississippi has such a regressive tax system is a major cause of public education in the state being so underfunded but that is not a discussion for this time. In addition to state funding, there are other sources of funding, which include tuition, philanthropy, public programs, and grants. To increase tuition revenue, without increasing tuition and without drawing students from the other two universities, USM must increase its enrollment from a new student pool. Whether or not those two restrictions are legitimate are not part of this discussion. At both the undergraduate and graduate levels, the new student pool can consist of out-of-state students, non-traditional students, displaced workers, junior status transfers from community colleges, executives, undecided students, and international students. One of the ways that the university has been trying to increase enrollment (and no, I'm not going to go THERE) is to COMPETE with the community colleges rather than to complement them (see point #2). Another way is to lower admission standards. Neither of these has any long term benefit to USM or to the University system. Regarding philanthropy, friends give and alumni give back because they have been successful and credit USM in some way for their success or because they believe in a mission/individual/program/team or because they want to get something in return. It is critically important not to give management rights to a university in exchange for donations. Sometimes it's better to say no to the gifts with strings and work instead on developing the quality that inspires loyalty, pride and true philanthropic giving. Revenue from events has a synergistic benefit to the university. Consulting, conferences, seminars, workshops can all act to increase the university's image and visibility. Grants are fine and occasionally appropriate but the model of the hard science grant is not one that fits other disciplines. To the extent that chasing grant money detracts from a faculty member's scholarly research, teaching, and university service, it diminishes the quality of the academic program that he or she serves.

2) The main purpose of universities in the state must be to provide a skilled labor force for economic development in order to solve the financial problems.

One of the things that Mississippi does well in education is workforce training at the community college level. Recruiting freshman students, destined for community college, to USM instead has the doubly negative effect of lowering average incoming ACT scores and providing the students a disservice because the community college is better equipped to meet their workforce training needs. At the university level, workforce training would be more efficiently delivered to students interested in human resource management or corporate training. In order to "solve the financial problems" - sounds like we need critical thinkers with solid business education.

3) If students can get an “education” along the way of being “trained” great, but that is not necessary for the present needs of this state.

An MBA is much more of a practitioner's degree than an undergraduate degree in business. Let's educate them broadly at the undergraduate level and allow them to specialize at the master's level. For any pure training, they need to be at the community colleges.

4) Major funds can only be brought to the University by disciplines that supply a “product” or “service” to industry.

Well, obviously this is one that business people embrace at first glance perhaps more so than folks in the other disciplines. I am offended by the use of the term "customers" for students (I don't much like them being called "possessions" either.) I would rather use the term "raw materials" to which a university can bring value-added education to create a "product" of high quality. In doing this, we certainly provide a "service" to industry. A recent speaker at the USM CBED said something along the lines of "Human Resources are an organization's greatest, and only sustainable, competitive advantage".

5) Thus major support must be directed to science, engineering and technologies.

I'm not sure that I understand the link to this conclusion but, given caveat #1 that I agreed to up-front, I'll work with it. High technology growth companies offer economic incentives and opportunity. Often scientists and engineers who start out at higher salaries in entry-level positions do not move up as fast in management as their business counterparts. They are often pigeon-holed in their technical positions. Many who do move into administration without management training often are ill-prepared as leaders (hmm, let me try to think of an example...) This has created an incrreased market demand for MBAs.

6) Arts and Letters must be reduced to supply the capital. (Enough leaders can be supplied the state by U. of Miss and Miss. State U.)

The A&L people have been making great arguments for themselves already. Let me add two things. First, pockets of excellence build the reputation of a university. USM has had some exceptional "pockets of excellence" that raise the prestige and visibility of the overall university. Every college benefits from the successes of another. Second,without getting into any of the resource allocation issues and turf battles that this might spark, joint programs that allow majors in the arts (or any of the other colleges, for that matter) combined with a minor in business or a 3/2 program resulting in a bachelor of arts (or B.S.) and an MBA make for a competitive graduate on the job market.

7) The freedom to make such “creative” moves require the removal of the antiquated institution of tenure.

People far more eloquent than I have made very strong arguments about the importance of tenure. I'll add to the case with a different slant. USM does not need to recreate the proverbial wheel when it comes to being "creative", becoming more "efficient", or increasing its stature. There are good schools with "best practices" that can be mimicked. There are accrediting agencies already in place that develop a framework for doing the right thing. When you're a top school, perhaps you can call the shots for what stands for quality. When you're not, it is better to pay attention to what the better schools have done. USM cannot be "world class" without its governing accreditations and it cannot be help the state of Mississippi in the long-term with a low-quality approach. Without tenure, there will be no commitment to either a long-term or to quality.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

Many people have chosen the Academic World over the Business World for a reason... it is built around education and "giving" and "selflessness" - which does not amount to much in the business world.

I was in the true business world and left it for academic life, which I much prefer. I prefer the selflessness, not only among people here at USM in Hattiesburg, but among all faculty at many universities. They aren't seeing things as "dog eat dog" and "I scratch your back, you scratch mine," as is common in the business world. Most in the academic world do much research and teaching and then FREELY give their expertise to others via publications and common conversations. They want to Give Away what they know, NOT charge a price for it.

To undestand that last statement is to begin to undestand what higher education is all about, when we are talking about state-supported universities.

It is a wonderful environment when people feel free to do this and still feel like they'll have a job in the morning.

At USM now, people feel afraid to log onto their computers each morning, even though they've done nothing wrong!!!

This will NOT change until our administration changes.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

To "undestand" is to "understand"!

An alien program is taking my "r" letters out! (or, perhaps, I am as tired in the fingers as anyone else tonight... perhaps I need to soften my stance against bad spelling?!)

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
" First of all EagleTalk.net EagleTalk.net is the largest community for Southern Miss athletics on the Internet. We get anywhere from 900,000 to 1.3M hits per month. We have more than 2,500 registered members at EagleTalk.net. We are primarily a Sports Information site. When you go to the front page, you will find no stories or information that is not in some way related to Southern Miss sports. We do not take editorial positions on issues that are non-sports related. If I post an opinion on the message boards, it's my opinion. I don't claim to be a journalist...after a review of my spelling you can probably guess why. Unlike some I don't claim to be non-biased when I clearly am not. In our message board section, we offer a Roundtable board that is used for all topics non-sports related. You or anyone else is free to discuss the issues there. We ask that you do not start topics on non-sports issues on the main EagleTalk board. Any non-sports thread will be moved to the Round Table. You can review all board rules under the links and resources section that you will find in the left hand menu. I can't promise you that your views will be well received...especially if you use a "fire Thames" type moniker. If I am not mistaken, several of your members have asked permission to post, and I have granted it. As for my respect and support of Thames. I respect and admire the vision that Thames has (or had) for Southern Miss. I respect what he has accomplished building the Polymer Science Program into a world-renowned program. I had hopes that we could accomplish this with more of our programs under him. I am not blind, and although some of you would argue, I am not stupid. I am probably more educated than many of you believe. Does the previous statement mean my resume may be investigated? But, back to the point...I realize that the period of Dr Thames effectiveness as an administrator is over. If he remains president, it will be a two-year period of treading water...if he resigns now a search will begin. I just really fear that if we bring in any president that demands accountability that we're going to be right back here in two years having the same discussion. I know the value of a good professor in college. There are a number of Proffs here at Southern Miss, that can never be paid what they are worth because of their value as educators, mentors and researchers. But, at the same time there is also a number of educators at Southern Miss that in reality aren't worth a fraction of what they are paid. Remember it is very difficult for many of us "working stiffs" out here to relate to the world in which many academics live. I am not going to name names, but I had classes at Southern Miss I should have been paid to sit though because the professors were so bad. At the same time I can't tell you the educational value that Professors such as Dr. Alvin Williams, Dr. Bill Smith and Dr. Robert Booth provided to me. I am in a world where I have to produce on a daily basis to be rewarded...whether is right or wrong....the threory of tenure as it is viewed by a large number is not highly looked upon. The reason being is that many view a tenured professor as somone who can do what they want with no fear of accountability. And it is clear from this hearing that that may not be too far fetched. "

I think it is fair to discuss accountability. I think it is fair to discuss tenure and its positives and negatives. It is unfortunate that in the midst of what seemed like a fruitful dialogue you decided to interject the slam that you raised at the end of the previous post.

The issue isn't that Thames demanded accountability. The issue is that his mechanisms for achieving accountability were more devoted to increasing the quantity of the work load rather than its quality. And he really doesn't try to understand that judging accountability in different disciplines needs different approaches and not one template.

Finally, in a university accountability needs to work both ways. The most successful university administrations understand that -- this one never has.

I've always accepted that I need to do "an honest day's work for an honest day's pay." However, some of us in the university are tempted to believe that that little axiom reflects something else: a failure to distinguish that the kind of work an academic does, whether it is teaching, or research or creative production may not look the same as other kinds of work. And that what is misunderstood as "not working very hard" may actually be working very hard in libraries, in offices, in the field and many places where the work simply isn't visible: and therefore doesn't appear as work.

I'm sorry you had bad professors. I had them too. I actually learned quite a bit from my bad professors. Maybe not what they intended, but that is OK. I have always looked at learning as something that not only is not always linear, but something that was my responsibility even when those who were supposed to be helping me weren't very good or very concerned. There was always the text (or whatever was used as a learning object), and there were alwys my classmates, and there was always the library, and there was always the professor whom no matter how bad he/she might be still had to answer my questions when posed.

I'm not being cavalier. If 50% of this universities professors are sloths, we have a problem. If it is more like 10%, then we have an issue that can behandled in many ways without having to overturn the work envornment that everyone else is working in. The problem under President Thames, in fact, is that it is hard and harder for me to do my main work: I have too many FARS to fill out; too many clerical duties I didn't have ten years ago; too many new chnages coming down the pike that I have to absorb but no sooner begin toi implement than here comes a new one. We have been in a constant state of "change" here with little perceivable direction and a sinking feeling that the only content of this university is action . . . continuous action that may or may not be taking us anywhere. It is hard to plan classes, calendars, syllabi, to keep ahead of the knowlege curve, to learn new technology so I can incorporate it in my work under such circumstances. Too many of the changes being made are not the result of good planning but from a simple need to act -- to prove that something is being done.

It is very frustrating -- and it doesn't make for my being the best teacher for my students.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
"
But, at the same time there is also a number of educators at Southern Miss that in reality aren't worth a fraction of what they are paid. Remember it is very difficult for many of us "working stiffs" out here to relate to the world in which many academics live. . . .
I am in a world where I have to produce on a daily basis to be rewarded...whether is right or wrong....the threory of tenure as it is viewed by a large number is not highly looked upon. The reason being is that many view a tenured professor as somone who can do what they want with no fear of accountability. And it is clear from this hearing that that may not be too far fetched.

"

Dear Mr. Mixon,

I am not a sports fan, so I don't know you or what business you are in. But any business has its own ways of doing things. People who sell cars know how to negotiate, people in restaurants don't change the price of your burger everyday. CEOs of large corporations get incredible perks, while part-timers don't even get health insurance. We could all argue in circles about whether all of this is fair or wrong, and it wouldn't matter, because that is the way those businesses run.

I understand that people who are not in academia do not understand tenure or why it is essential to what we do. And I'm not going to try to explain it to you--others on this board can do that far more eloquently. But you must understand that this is how universities run. And if the president of USM (whoever it might be) tries to abolish tenure, it would suicide for the institution. It would be like a restaurant owner deciding that he's just not gonna bother with that pesky health inspector.

I also want you to know that compared to professors at most other institutions, USM professors teach more courses and get paid less. I have worked at 4 other schools and the conditions here are some of the worst I've seen. I buy my own chalk for class. I use my own printer and paper to make my handouts because the university does not have the money to provide me with enough photocopying. When I have to travel to present my research (which is part of my job), I have to pay for it myself. There are not enough materials in the library for my research, so I sometimes have to buy my own. In the past two years, I have spent about over $6000 of my salary just to do my job. I have 14 years of teaching experience, but last fall when I went to a job interview, I discovered that I was making entry-level salary. The chances of my getting a raise for working hard or having successful research are extremely slim. Also, I generally work most of the day, and I do work every night. I usually work at home on weekends as well. My family has not taken a vacation in 4 years that did not also involve professional work for either me or my husband.

So, I think you can understand why I get upset when people who do not work at USM think I am lazy and don't have to face reality since I am tenured. And while there certainly are lazy, worthless professors, there are also lazy, worthless waiters, lawyers, salespeople, managers, secretaries, accountants, maids, etc. It is not necessarily a function of being tenured.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
"
... But, at the same time there is also a number of educators at Southern Miss that in reality aren't worth a fraction of what they are paid. Remember it is very difficult for many of us "working stiffs" out here to relate to the world in which many academics live. I am not going to name names, but I had classes at Southern Miss I should have been paid to sit though because the professors were so bad. ...

I am in a world where I have to produce on a daily basis to be rewarded...whether is right or wrong....the threory of tenure as it is viewed by a large number is not highly looked upon. The reason being is that many view a tenured professor as somone who can do what they want with no fear of accountability. And it is clear from this hearing that that may not be too far fetched.
"

There are many issues here that need to be pointed out. I know faculty who are poor teachers, but excellent researchers. They put all of their time into research and so they have less time for their teaching duties. However, if they require less of the student and give plenty of "A"s they get OK teaching evaluations and excellent research evaluations. USM has a hugh grade inflation problem because of this. Other faculty are excellent teachers that require students to work, but students who have families and are employed 30-40hours a week can't keep up. These students have the opinion that they are not getting a good education, (not what they paid for) although they have no idea what a good education is.

Most professors have briefcases to bring work home to work on at nights and weekends. Professors are not paid by the hour, and yet people in the community complain when they see a professor go home "early". They don't realize professors are still working 24/7.

With that said, I agree there are some "bad apples". Their supervisors should evaluate them fairly. However, the Thames administration has fed the community lies that this is the rule rather than the exception. People without any knowledge of academics write letters to the editor saying "Thames is trying to get a days work for a days pay" from the faculty. This is propaganda.

Otherside

Date: Apr 30, 2004

We go from here in steps.

1. Quickly get someone in place that is trusted by the faculty and is sufficiently competent in the nuts and bolts of the University. While this Message Board's focus has been on the academic side, with good reason, the administrative side of the house is in shambles and in deperate need of competent people and more people.

2. After a year or so of calm, a national search can be held. At the moment we do not need a new President from the outside who does not know the problems and has an agenda that mostly focuses on his/her own resume and wants to make changes for changes sake.

3. Serious efforts need to be made to unite with our sister institutions and work on educating the Board on what universities do, why they are run in the manner they are, and not like a family owned business. The life expectancy of a family owned business is less than two years. Universities have to maintain themselves for decades and centuries.

4. Do not forget the lessons learned. Faculty charged with helping to recruit a new President need to be skeptical of all candidates, especially those who became administrators early without any faculty experience. Background checks on candidates often is hit or miss and seldom systematic.

Hopefully, this nightmare episode with SFT will make faculty more appreciative of a President that is open with faculty and not vindicative even if he/she is not as competent as we would like.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

Well, board, both pro and anti Thames, as well as the neutral ones:

USM GOES TO HELL

I hope the last word is not alered but you know what it is.

Date: Apr 30, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: RealitryCheck
"Well, board, both pro and anti Thames, as well as the neutral ones: USM GOES TO HELL I hope the last word is not alered but you know what it is."

Personally, I don't think we are in Hell yet. With Thames as our "leader," we are definitely on our way there. We need to keep fighting him.

As someone else said earlier, and I don't have any idea from which thread I read it, but he/she said that sooner or later IHL will get tired of cleaning up Thames' messes and just get rid of Thames himself.

Date: May 2, 2004

quote:

Originally posted by: Lanny Mixon
" But, back to the point...I realize that the period of Dr Thames effectiveness as an administrator is over. If he remains president, it will be a two-year period of treading water...if he resigns now a search will begin."

This comment seems worthy of wider attention.