Truth Table

Date: May 17, 2004

Truth Table

Date: May 17, 2004

This thread is very interesting! There has been very little if any thruth on this cite.

The person Truth4USM is not truthful but in a far away place casting stones. What type of "goodies" do you get for participating in this cite? Does your particiaption my your work easier for your doctoral degree. Hummmmm! maybe you will be able to skip your defense all together for your hard work here.

I say that an independent third party (group) evaluate yoru work to see if it cuts it!

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Sponge Bob Square Pants
"This thread is very interesting! There has been very little if any thruth on this cite.
The person Truth4USM is not truthful but in a far away place casting stones."

TROLL ALERT!

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Sponge Bob Square Pants
"This thread is very interesting! <SNIP>"

Well, I hope "truth" isn't getting extra credit points for the research behind the graphic, because it's all pretty much common knowledge. The only thing that bugs me is that green line between Gregg & Vance.

You're right, RC, it's a
TROLL ALERT

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Sponge Bob Square Pants
"This thread is very interesting! There has been very little if any thruth on this cite. The person Truth4USM is not truthful but in a far away place casting stones. What type of "goodies" do you get for participating in this cite? Does your particiaption my your work easier for your doctoral degree. Hummmmm! maybe you will be able to skip your defense all together for your hard work here. I say that an independent third party (group) evaluate yoru work to see if it cuts it!"

Site? Although maybe FireShelby will be cited! Don't they teach spelling in Troll School?

Yup, Vanderbilt is known for giving their degrees away while USM sets the standard for quality...especially in the Economic Development PhD program under Tim Hudson's watchful eye! Truth, did you forget the Hudson relationship(s)? Invictus, that green line to Lassen is because he is a grauate student in economic development.

That's right, we're not supposed to respond to trolls but they're so easy to poke fun at!

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Malapropism
" Site? Although maybe FireShelby will be cited! Don't they teach spelling in Troll School? Yup, Vanderbilt is known for giving their degrees away while USM sets the standard for quality...especially in the Economic Development PhD program under Tim Hudson's watchful eye! Truth, did you forget the Hudson relationship(s)? Invictus, that green line to Lassen is because he is a grauate student in economic development. That's right, we're not supposed to respond to trolls but they're so easy to poke fun at! "

Typo, serves me right - graduate!

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Malapropism
"
Invictus, that green line to Lassen is because he is a grauate student in economic development."

Rats. I was hoping it was one of those "What Would Billy Hewes Do" moments

So, USM won't hire its own graduates, but it will let its graduate students work as Chief Financial Officer, eh? Amazing.

Date: May 17, 2004

That "Sponge Bob" message is a joke, right? Thanks for the comic relief Sponge....

Date: May 17, 2004

Truth4USM:

What you have to add now is a circle for Noetic with all its principals listed, and lines going back to their same names in the USM organizational circles you already have.

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Austin Eagle
"That "Sponge Bob" message is a joke, right? Thanks for the comic relief Sponge...."

No joke, I think. It's a troll & it has worked very effectively to kill discussion of Truth's table so far.

I'm still disappointed about that green line...

Date: May 17, 2004

Invictus,

USM will hire its own graduates for administrative/staff positions. The inbreeding rule only works for those with the terminal degree (PhD) applying for a tenure track position. In my mind, Ken Malone's hiring violates the inbreeding rule. Lassen doesn't yet, unless he succeeds in getting his doctorate and then tries to get a tenure track position.

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Anon
"
USM will hire its own graduates for administrative/staff positions. The inbreeding rule only works for those with the terminal degree (PhD) applying for a tenure track position. In my mind, Ken Malone's hiring violates the inbreeding rule. Lassen doesn't yet, unless he succeeds in getting his doctorate and then tries to get a tenure track position."

I know that, Anon.

But aren't the odds that Lassen will get a tenure track position as a reward for finishing his degree? And isn't it odd that a graduate student is Chief Financial Officer?

But back to my original beef... The point is that some departments toe the line on the inbreeding rule, while others are evidently exempt. A rule that is applied inconsistently isn't a rule. In fact, I challenge any employee of the University of Southern Mississippi to produce a written, official copy of the "inbreeding rule." I don't think you'll find it. It's custom, not regulation & dates from a SACS self-study in the late '60s or early '70s, IIRC.

Date: May 17, 2004

The rule against hiring USM Ph.D.'s into tenure-track positions must postdate 1972. In Exit 13, Piliawsky complains that USM was the most academically inbred institution he had ever heard of: large numbers of faculty members and administrators had terminal degrees from USM.

Robert Campbell

Date: May 17, 2004

Invictus,

The inbreeding rule has always applied to me! I got my PhD at USM in 1986. There is a page in the Employee Handbook (Retrieval page #6001) which refers to the rule in the Faculty Handbook about one having a terminal degree from USM. Of course, you can no longer look at the Faculty Handbook online because the website has been "cleansed" of this document. I believe that Dr. Lucas applied the rule fairly and I accepted and settled for staff positions even though I very much wanted to teach. Thames has applied it very unfairly and it is being used as an excuse to try to do hire new faculty for the many vacant positions.

Date: May 17, 2004

Sorry, guys, I had a meeting to attend; too bad the explanation is so far away from the chart! Now, for the key to the chart (though I think you've already figured it out...):

**Red arrows=related by marriage

**Blue arrows=related by blood

**Green arrows=related by degree program

Here is the textual description of the chart (with Noetic references inserted):

Polymer Science Department

Diana Flosenzier, Dept. Grant Writer (staff) (wife of Vance Flosenzeir)

Sarah Morgan, Assistant Professor (faculty) (wife of Les Goff)

Mississippi Polymer Institute

Kelli Booth, Coordinator of Marketing Development (staff)**Also, staff for Noetic Tech, Inc. (wife of Ken Malone)

Department of Economic Development

Ken Malone, chair/COO of Gulf Coast/who knows what next? (faculty?) (husband of Kelli Booth)

Vance Flosenzier, Director of Process Technology. **Also, staff for Noetic Tech, Inc. (husband of Diane Flosenzier)

VP for Research and Economic Development

Angie Dvorak, VP (staff? faculty?) (wife of Mark Dvorak)

Les Goff, Executive Director of Innovation and Business Ventures (staff)/CEO for Noetic Tech, Inc. (husband of Sarah Morgan)

Human Resources

Mark Dvorak, director (staff) (husband of Angie Dvorak)

Department of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education

Dana Thames, chair (faculty) (daughter of SFT)

Chief Financial Officer

Gregg Lassen (staff) **also, a doctoral candidate in Economic Development’s International Development program

Sorry, I didn't include the Hudsons (Tim Hudson, Provost and his daughter, Holly Hudson-Buckner, coordinator of International Programs). This chart stretched my graphics abilities as Invictus can tell you!

The main reason I did it was to just have all the relationships mapped out for those who haven't been reading all of the threads. For reasons mentioned by Robert Campbell, Former Executive, and others, it's important to know how all of these people interact and intersect, professionally and personally. Hope this helps. If you think it's not factual, then I challenge you to post a corrected version.

and....must....not...respond....to...TROLL!

Date: May 17, 2004

Sorry the bullets didn't come out right.

Oh, and I forgot to say THANKS to Invictus for invaluable tech help! YOU ROCK (like a rolling stone!)

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Anon
"The inbreeding rule has always applied to me! I got my PhD at USM in 1986."

Anon, Thanks for the info. I've always wondered if there really was a written policy. And I'm not bashing it: Because of that policy, I DO NOT WORK AT THE UNIVERSITY OF SOUTHERN MISSISSIPPI, thank God!

Date: May 17, 2004

Andrea et al,

As a USM outsider who spent a good deal of time "inside" three different universities, all of which, if I'm not mistaken, are considered first-tier schools, I find this situation nothing short of remarkable. Please enlighten me. Has this nepotistic web evolved over time, under the radar, or has it been blatant and simply ignored by the IHL board members? I know this sort of incest was either implicitly, if not expressly prohibited at the universities I attended, and I'd wager it's nowhere to be found at either Ole Miss or MSU. So what's different in Hattiesburg?

I know this isn't a short answer question, but I'm just having trouble wrapping my mind around the Thames shenanigans at USM, and the fact that he's operated in this fashion with relative impunity for so many years.

Thanks,
AE

Date: May 17, 2004

What would be interesting is to add in the Hudson nepotism and the Lisa Slay Mader cronyism. Where did Lisa come from? Carl Nicholson?

Then we can add the board members to the chart, and some 'local' business people.

What we need is an anthropologist to do a kinship diagram!

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: bluegrass professor
"
What we need is an anthropologist to do a kinship diagram!"

But wouldn't the anthropologist need the SKULLS of the principal players do do that?

<TRULY EVIL GRIN>

Date: May 17, 2004

I've seen family trees that aren't that confusing. Most of em have more branches. Unless you are in West Virginia or New Mexico.

Anyway, can't, shouldn't someone take this to a lawyer who deals in 'business law' and ask questions regarding nepotisim? Looks like you all have a lot of that going on. Most places, including institutions of higher learning don't have that many married or related people in high places. To me, that's just wrong.

Date: May 17, 2004

To Bluegrass Professor's question about Lisa Slay Mader - I have been told by a Hattiesburg native that Lisa is the "niece" of Carl Nicholson ( and by another account, the wife of Carl's nephew ). Either way,( if this is fact ), it's another link in the nepotism chart. Go figure!

And by the way - who has rights to the book that's bound to come out of all this?!!

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Old Librarian
"To Bluegrass Professor's question about Lisa Slay Mader - I have been told by a Hattiesburg native that Lisa is the "niece" of Carl Nicholson ( and by another account, the wife of Carl's nephew ). Either way,( if this is fact ), it's another link in the nepotism chart. Go figure! And by the way - who has rights to the book that's bound to come out of all this?!! "

She is not Nicholson's niece. Her connection to Nicholson is through others.

Date: May 17, 2004

Hear what comfortable words the scripture, er, USM policies & procedures, have for us...

Section: Employment Policies
Retrieval No. 1015
Date July 1, 1993
Subject: Nepotism

Policy
Section 25-l-53 of the Mississippi Code, 1972, specifically prohibits nepotism in state agencies and institutions of higher learning.

A department or unit of the University may not employ any person in any capacity if such a person is related by blood or marriage within the third degree to any other employee in the same department or unit if either one of the two related employees in the same or different units will have direction or supervision of the other. A relation within the third degree is defined as a person related by blood or marriage which would include parents, children, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, grandparents, great-grandparents, and step relatives.

The nepotism policy applies to employees paid through contracts and grants.

Student employees are also covered under this policy.

In short, I don't think any of the relationships outlined in Truth's Table meet these procedural criteria for being "nepotistic," since the relationships fall outside department/unit divisions & there are no defined supervisory relationships, except for the one between Shelby & Dana. And that one is probably protected since Dana is theoretically not a direct report to her daddy. Were Shelby to attempt to appoint his daughter as provost there might be a problem, but nothing a lawyer couldn't fix.

The Noetic business entity probably circumvents this rule, because it is a separate corporate entity from the University.

Yes, this is a shocking bunch of nepotism, but even more shocking, it is PERFECTLY LEGAL. As I've posted before, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right. But because it's legal, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

Date: May 17, 2004

Invictus,

You are probably right that these relations are technically legal, but they stink to high heaven (as I know you agree) and will look very bad to most members of the general public if they are brought constantly to the public's attention. In other words, they may be legal, but they can still be used against SFT. Most members of the public, even if they care nothing about academic freedom and shared governance, can see the injustice of this kind of abuse of public funds.

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: USM Sympathizer
"You are probably right that these relations are technically legal, but they stink to high heaven (as I know you agree) and will look very bad to most members of the general public if they are brought constantly to the public's attention. In other words, they may be legal, but they can still be used against SFT. Most members of the public, even if they care nothing about academic freedom and shared governance, can see the injustice of this kind of abuse of public funds."

Yes, I agree. To the general public, nepotism -- especially stuff as blatant as this -- is A VERY BAD THING™ & attempts to demonstrate that "this sort of stuff is perfectly legal" will just make the administration look lamer than it already is.

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"Hear what comfortable words the scripture, er, USM policies & procedures, have for us... Section: Employment Policies Retrieval No. 1015 Date July 1, 1993 Subject: Nepotism Policy Section 25-l-53 of the Mississippi Code, 1972, specifically prohibits nepotism in state agencies and institutions of higher learning. A department or unit of the University may not employ any person in any capacity if such a person is related by blood or marriage within the third degree to any other employee in the same department or unit if either one of the two related employees in the same or different units will have direction or supervision of the other. A relation within the third degree is defined as a person related by blood or marriage which would include parents, children, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, grandparents, great-grandparents, and step relatives. The nepotism policy applies to employees paid through contracts and grants. Student employees are also covered under this policy. In short, I don't think any of the relationships outlined in Truth's Table meet these procedural criteria for being "nepotistic," since the relationships fall outside department/unit divisions & there are no defined supervisory relationships, except for the one between Shelby & Dana. And that one is probably protected since Dana is theoretically not a direct report to her daddy. Were Shelby to attempt to appoint his daughter as provost there might be a problem, but nothing a lawyer couldn't fix. The Noetic business entity probably circumvents this rule, because it is a separate corporate entity from the University. Yes, this is a shocking bunch of nepotism, but even more shocking, it is PERFECTLY LEGAL. As I've posted before, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right. But because it's legal, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. "

Got a friend in court on the Shelby - Dana nepotism problemo, remember there's a state law against it. That court case ought to define some boundaries. Dana has behaved very badly and pretty illegally.

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"Hear what comfortable words the scripture, er, USM policies & procedures, have for us... Section: Employment Policies Retrieval No. 1015 Date July 1, 1993 Subject: Nepotism Policy Section 25-l-53 of the Mississippi Code, 1972, specifically prohibits nepotism in state agencies and institutions of higher learning. A department or unit of the University may not employ any person in any capacity if such a person is related by blood or marriage within the third degree to any other employee in the same department or unit if either one of the two related employees in the same or different units will have direction or supervision of the other. A relation within the third degree is defined as a person related by blood or marriage which would include parents, children, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, nieces, nephews, grandchildren, grandparents, great-grandparents, and step relatives. The nepotism policy applies to employees paid through contracts and grants. Student employees are also covered under this policy. In short, I don't think any of the relationships outlined in Truth's Table meet these procedural criteria for being "nepotistic," since the relationships fall outside department/unit divisions & there are no defined supervisory relationships, except for the one between Shelby & Dana. And that one is probably protected since Dana is theoretically not a direct report to her daddy. Were Shelby to attempt to appoint his daughter as provost there might be a problem, but nothing a lawyer couldn't fix. The Noetic business entity probably circumvents this rule, because it is a separate corporate entity from the University. Yes, this is a shocking bunch of nepotism, but even more shocking, it is PERFECTLY LEGAL. As I've posted before, just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right. But because it's legal, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT. "

I see you point Invictus, but since Shelboo is president of the university, would that not count as his "unit"? I have worked for much smaller businesses and even a large corporate franchise with anti-nepotism policies similar to USM's under which noone could work over (or in, in some cases) the same unit as their relatives to the third degree. In these situations, if a relative got hired to the same unit as another, then one or the other would have to quit or be fired.

I was just wondering if the Dana/Shelby situation could be interpreted legally in the same way. He is, after all, technically the president of the all of USM (which can easily be considered a big so-called unit), including her department. If he can bypass and has bypassed the "chain of command" in some situations (such as the attempted G&S terminations), couldn't he just as easily bypass it in reference to the interests of his own daughter?

Just a question. I have been curious about this for some time. Maybe it's just a matter of interpretation, but that's definetly one way to see it, I think.

Date: May 17, 2004

Another question: did Dana get her position before or after Daddy became pres? I've been unclear about that through this whole mess.

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: cindy
"Another question: did Dana get her position before or after Daddy became pres? I've been unclear about that through this whole mess. "

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that Dana Thames had been here for a while before Shelby became prez.

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: cindy
"Another question: did Dana get her position before or after Daddy became pres? I've been unclear about that through this whole mess. "

She got it before he became president, but she immediately decided to become very personal with several members in CISE and strong arm them. Daddy joined right in and by early August 2002 her daddy and miss dana brought on the first of what has become several lawsuits. Apparently at USM, lawsuits count towards merit pay!

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Emma
"She got it before he became president, but she immediately decided to become very personal with several members in CISE and strong arm them. Daddy joined right in and by early August 2002 her daddy and miss dana brought on the first of what has become several lawsuits. Apparently at USM, lawsuits count towards merit pay!"

You'd think, with all that emphasis on earning money, they's be tired of paying out settlements, huh?

Date: May 17, 2004

sorry, they'd be tired. speaking of tired...

Date: May 17, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" Yes, I agree. To the general public, nepotism -- especially stuff as blatant as this -- is A VERY BAD THING™ & attempts to demonstrate that "this sort of stuff is perfectly legal" will just make the administration look lamer than it already is. "

Good point -- I hadn't thought about the fact that they might actually try to DEFEND this kind of stuff and thereby make themselves look even worse.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Emma
"She got it before he became president, but she immediately decided to become very personal with several members in CISE and strong arm them. Daddy joined right in and by early August 2002 her daddy and miss dana brought on the first of what has become several lawsuits. Apparently at USM, lawsuits count towards merit pay!"

For the benefit of the uninformed, could you bring me/us up to speed on the lawsuits to which you refer? Who sued whom, over what, and who prevailed? "Brought on" suggests to me that Thames and Thames initiated the suits, but I believe I read elsewhere that it was USM that was sued? A short tutorial, please.

Date: May 18, 2004

One of the lawsuits is due to come up quite soon, I beleive. Melissa Whiting was denied tenure on some rather arbitrary grounds. She settled with the university on one level (I believe they paid her to not teach--sound familiar). Her federal court case should be quite interesting.

What is extremely interesting is the lack of faculty in CISE. Granted, two faculty members died in the last year, but there have been MANY quality faculty that have left who have not been replaced. It would also been interesting to look at the numbers regarding graduate enrollment. I think the program has declined over the past few years.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: USM Sympathizer
"Good point -- I hadn't thought about the fact that they might actually try to DEFEND this kind of stuff and thereby make themselves look even worse. "

Of course they will try to defend it. It's legal & by-god they're right! And in a court of law, they would be right. But in the court of public opinion they will look like a bunch of parasites, which is what they are.

The cover story is that this is all about "creating good paying jobs for Mississippians." The rest of the story is that the "good paying jobs" are for a very, very small group of select Mississippians. It's really about making yourself & your cronies rich. Anybody who tells you otherwise is lying through their teeth, perhaps even to themselves.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" I know that, Anon. But aren't the odds that Lassen will get a tenure track position as a reward for finishing his degree? And isn't it odd that a graduate student is Chief Financial Officer? But back to my original beef... The point is that some departments toe the line on the inbreeding rule, while others are evidently exempt. A rule that is applied inconsistently isn't a rule. In fact, I challenge any employee of the University of Southern Mississippi to produce a written, official copy of the "inbreeding rule." I don't think you'll find it. It's custom, not regulation & dates from a SACS self-study in the late '60s or early '70s, IIRC."

I've wondered about this issue ever since I arrived here several years ago. Yes, many academic departments DO hire USM PhDs! Go through the departmental websites and see for yourself. Now, some of these folks are very good at what they do and they are not likely to leave with ties in the area (always a concern even before SFT took over), so that makes them good hires. However, when you are trying to build a national, as opposed to a local, reputation hiring so many USM PhDs works against that goal. Moreover, many of the non-USM PhDs have at least one of their degrees from USM, much like SFT hisself. The in-bred nature of faculty and staff at USM is absolutely unbelieveable for a university, and I think it partly accounts for so much of the conformist attitude among employees here. They don't know much more than USM and we somehow expect them to think on a national level according to national standards?

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
" Of course they will try to defend it. It's legal & by-god they're right! And in a court of law, they would be right. But in the court of public opinion they will look like a bunch of parasites, which is what they are. The cover story is that this is all about "creating good paying jobs for Mississippians." The rest of the story is that the "good paying jobs" are for a very, very small group of select Mississippians. It's really about making yourself & your cronies rich. Anybody who tells you otherwise is lying through their teeth, perhaps even to themselves. "

Invictus, what Shelby did in the Whiting suit went completely against the Faculty Handbook - she had been approved tenure and promotion by the Provost and UAC - her only roadblock was Dana who was very threatened by the strength of her credentials and was afraid Whiting would be an opposing voice in faculty matters in her Dept. Her annual evaluations were impecable. She set the standards in that department - and everyone knew it. She had her Daddy sit on Whiting's recommendation and it was Shelby who didn't offer Whiting a contract with the rest of the faculty prompting the lawsuit. No President in his right mind (which might explain the actions) would have done this and not provided ANY reason. Shelboo had no reasons - when she shared the documents that I actually saw - no reason was given - he just stated that he had decided to terminate her. It's in Federal Court - Kim Chaze is her attorney and Shelby has no defense. I'm hoping she gets to really talk about this once it's over because I think she's gathered some interesting information over this that will be a big help in bringing him down.

BTW, last time I talked to her, she's on the short list for a position at Yale University.

Date: May 18, 2004

Angeline, I take exception to your remark for in my case I have degrees from two other universities: University of North Carolina and San Diego State University. It just so happened that my husband's work brought me to the Hburg area so USM is where I received my PhD. That didn't matter to the powers that be since my terminal degree is from USM and was never employable as a tenured faculty member at USM. Makes no difference to me now since I have just entered the ranks fo retirement.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Anon
"Angeline, I take exception to your remark for in my case I have degrees from two other universities: University of North Carolina and San Diego State University. It just so happened that my husband's work brought me to the Hburg area so USM is where I received my PhD. That didn't matter to the powers that be since my terminal degree is from USM and was never employable as a tenured faculty member at USM. Makes no difference to me now since I have just entered the ranks fo retirement."

Hi Anon, I'm not trying to insult anyone who worked very hard for their degrees no matter where they earned them, but I am trying to undertsand the particular pathos of USM and this seems like one cause.

BTW: what do you mean you were "never employable as a tenured faculty member at USM?" USM has always hired tenure-track faculty with PhDs from USM - that was the point of my earlier post. If someone told you otherwise, they lied.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Angeline
"
Hi Anon, I'm not trying to insult anyone who worked very hard for their degrees no matter where they earned them, but I am trying to undertsand the particular pathos of USM...

Don't you mean "pathology of USM"?

Date: May 18, 2004

Angeline,
Throughout the AKL admin there was clearly a policy in the Faculty Handbook (no longer available online) that stated that a terminal degree from USM made one unemployable in a tenured faculty position. In the 90s I applied for several positions but had no luck in ever obtaining one. Sometimes they would make exceptions when one left the Hburg area for a few years and came back. I worked in Jackson for several years, but apparently that did count or I didn't have the right connections. BTW, I don't take offense at your remarks.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Austin Eagle
""

Yes, you're right: "pathology" is a better decription, rather than the "feeling" of USM - though I do often sense an odd feeling emananting form the bowels of USM.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Angeline
"I do often sense an odd feeling emananting form the bowels of USM. "

Yeah, me too. It's buffoon gas....

AE

Date: May 18, 2004

The Faculty Handbook IS available online: http://www.usm.edu/pubs/fachbook/2001_Faculty_Handbook_Word_Version_for_Web.pdf

The passage relevant to our discussion says that USM PhDs can be hired with approval of the president and after a national search, Chapter 5, section 7.4.

Date: May 18, 2004

Angeline,

Not to be argumentative, but that policy was changed. Under no circumstances were USM PhD's considered.

Date: May 18, 2004

Angeline,

Thanks for pointing to the Faculty Handbook. You will note that the effective date is 2/2001. And the first part of the policy states that as a general rule they will not hire a USM terminal degree recipient for a tenure track position and ... the rest of the story as you report. My last post on this issue!

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Angeline
"The Faculty Handbook IS available online: http://www.usm.edu/pubs/fachbook/2001_Faculty_Handbook_Word_Version_for_Web.pdf
The passage relevant to our discussion says that USM PhDs can be hired with approval of the president and after a national search, Chapter 5, section 7.4."

Angeline at al,

In the FWIW department, my son submitted applications to several Ph.D. programs in the late 90's, including USM, Ole Miss, and UNC. He was advised on the front end by EVERY university (except USM) to which he applied, that having earned a terminal degree from their program, he'd be ineligible for tenure track employment there. I was with him in Oxford when he interviewed at Ole Miss; they specifically told him that they did not subscribe to the philosophy of hiring their own Ph.D.'s, a "common practice at Southern Miss." Interviewing at USM, he was advised that while there was a nominal prohibition against hiring doctoral grads, it was only paid lip service, and easily circumvented if you cultivated the "right people".

AE

Date: May 18, 2004

It's also relevant to remember that the current Handbook can only be used in current situations. If some type of discrimination (for example) occured when an earlier Faculty Handbook was in place, then it is that Handbook that is referred to. I am positive of this.

Date: May 18, 2004

Before I start, let me note that I will Probably get zapped because I am not entitled to express not only a true fact but my opinion as well.

This posting also deserves to be placed under the "Nepotism" thread.

IHL Board Policy--

Sec. 801.03(A)

No individual shall be employed in a department or unit under the supervision of a relative who has or may have a direct effect on the individuals progress, performance or welfare. [emphasis added]

The were almost 80 couples employed at USM until Gary Stringer terminated; however, now there are some 70 (plus) couples employed here.

To illustrate here are some VERY interesting examples:

1. Charlie Burchell and Susan Hubble

2. Donald Keith and Dana Keith

3. Walter Kinney and Judy Kinney

4. Mark Miller and Amy Miller

5. Gary Stringer and Mary Ann Stringer (Retired)

6. Ellen Weinauer and Jonathan Barron

** The list goes on and on. Let us not forget to label one means we need to label all!

This whole thread was the topic of discussion which makes us look malicious and vindictive.

Date: May 18, 2004

FYI - yeah, so?? Where's the direct supervision???

"True facts" -- just SFT says something is true (like in his warning about the "Truth" coming out in his accusations against G & S) doesn't necessarily, in a rational world, make it a fact.

Date: May 18, 2004

When you come to work in a college town and deal with dual career issues, then it is not unusual to see spouses and family members at the same university. What is so highly unusual in this case is that such an intimately related group AT THE TOP has had so much influence over the president The cadre of economic development cronies are all related to each other and all brought in from outside academia without national searches.

Date: May 18, 2004

You are so FULL of S**T Emma and Topple the Top.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: FYI
"You are so FULL of S**T Emma and Topple the Top."

, oooh, struck a nerve! A True Fact.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Austin Eagle
"

In the FWIW department, my son submitted applications to several Ph.D. programs in the late 90's, including USM, Ole Miss, and UNC. He was advised on the front end by EVERY university (except USM) to which he applied, that having earned a terminal degree from their program, he'd be ineligible for tenure track employment there. I was with him in Oxford when he interviewed at Ole Miss; they specifically told him that they did not subscribe to the philosophy of hiring their own Ph.D.'s, a "common practice at Southern Miss." Interviewing at USM, he was advised that while there was a nominal prohibition against hiring doctoral grads, it was only paid lip service, and easily circumvented if you cultivated the "right people".

AE"

Here is some background on the policy against hiring faculty with terminal degrees from USM.

Academic inbreeding was a serious problem at USM when Dr. Lucas assumed the presidency in 1975. As I recall, Dr. Lucas established the “no terminal degrees from USM” policy shortly after he took office. It certainly was in place when I became the Assistant Vice President for Academic Affairs in 1989, and we enforced it. I know this for a fact because, among things, I interviewed every prospective faculty member when he or she was brought to campus. (Exceptions to my statement include periods when Larry LeFlore and Bobby Middlebrooks shared this responsibility with me.) I estimate that I conducted from 150 to 250 of these interviews each year for about ten years. They did not necessarily last very long, but I looked at every CV that came across my desk. (Incidentally, I did not interview persons who had applied for positions at Stennis or GCRL, although I did interview persons applying for positions at the Gulf Park campus.)

There are two points I would like to make. First, I rarely interviewed an applicant whose terminal degree was from USM. It is true that many of the faculty at USM have earned a degree from USM (Andy Weist, Chuck Bolton and Brad Bond are examples), but I stand by my assertion the persons with a terminal degree from USM applying for a tenure-track position at USM during the period with which I am familiar (1989-2002) were few and far between. Second, we did ease up on the enforcement of this policy toward the end of my stay. However, even then exceptions required substantial justification by the appropriate chair and dean. One example of an exception that I recall involved hiring a person with a terminal degree from USM in journalism because his area of expertise was advertising. We were told that getting someone with that expertise at the salary USM was willing to pay was extremely difficult, and so an exception was made. Interestingly, one of the arguments that surfaced during discussions about exceptions was that we could afford to make an exception on occasion because strict enforcement of the policy had done much to solve the problem of academic inbreeding at USM. As far as the number of exceptions we made while I was there is concerned, I could count them on the fingers of one hand, two hands at the most. (I must admit that one of these cases was badly mishandled and resulted in a real stink. I am sure that some of you will recall that situation.)

BREAK

About two hours ago I decided it was time for a break. That pause gave me a chance to reflect on what I had already written, and I realized that I was running the risk of being seriously embarrassed. After all, either USM has a lot of faculty with terminal degrees from USM or it doesn’t. The issue is hardly philosophic. So I went online, opened the faculty section for the 2003-2004 Undergraduate Bulletin (a PDF file), and searched for every occurrence of the words “Southern Mississippi.” I purposely ignored persons who held the rank of instructor or various impermanent titles, such as visiting assistant professor. Here is what I found. (By the way, I also walked the dog and had some lunch.)

I found twenty-six tenure-track faculty members with a terminal degree from USM listed in the Undergraduate Bulletin for 2003-2004. Six of these were librarians holding academic rank with MLS degrees. Five were in Coastal Sciences, a department that was not a academic department until a few years ago. (I recall when Bobby Middlebrooks arranged for faculty members at GCRL and Stennis to be grand-fathered into their academic ranks.) Faculty members involved with teacher education (e.g., Field Experiences) accounted for four, and Music three. Two were in Nursing, which is surprisingly low given the large number you would have found in this unit yen years ago. The remaining six were distributed among the following departments: Criminal Justice, Ed Leadership, Family and Consumer Sciences, Finance, Foreign Languages, and Polymer Science.

How do these numbers stack up when compared with my fingers. Not bad, I think. I had no way of determining when these people were hired, but I am not even sure that when they were hired is the issue. I think what is more important is the question of whether exceptions were being made in areas requiring specific expertise that was hard to find or difficult to attract to USM given the salaries we were willing to pay in those areas. (Relying on our own graduates in library science is an example of the latter.) For the most part, I think these exceptions fall into that category. For example, Don Cabana got his doctorate at USM. I remember when he was hired (I interviewed him) and everyone agreed that his experience as the warden at Parchman far outweighed any concerns we had about where he got his terminal degree.

Now, back to the posting by Austin Eagle that inspired me to set aside the research I was working on this morning in order to provide some data in regard to this issue. In my opinion, the person at Ole Miss who told Austin Eagle’s son in the late 90s that hiring people with terminal degrees was a “common practice at Southern Miss” was either twenty years out step or blowing smoke, probably both. The same can be said of the person at USM who told Austin Eagle’s son that the policy was easily circumvented if he “cultivated the ‘right people.’”

Are twenty-six tenure-track faculty members with terminal degrees from USM (about 5% of the tenure-track faculty at USM) too many? I don’t know. The answer to that question is a matter of opinion. Nevertheless, Austin Eagle has done a good thing by raising the issue. High or low, these numbers provide a baseline against which we can gauge the wisdom and integrity of the current administration.

Jim Hollandsworth

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: FYI
"You are so FULL of S**T Emma and Topple the Top."

See, this is what's going to get you zapped, dude. Attacking board members with profanity (and unimaginatively, to boot) just gets you a one-way ticket to Eagle Talk. Go speak your ridiculous blather among your own kind.

Date: May 18, 2004

Follow-up Comments to Jim Hollandsworth:

Dear Jim,

I appreciate your very thoughtful and well documented treatise in response to my earlier post, which I acknowledge, was anecdotal. I did not intend to disparage USM, a university which I greatly respect, or stimulate a new line of controversy. However, the situation concerning my son, and the comment I related from the Ole Miss professor, are accurate. If nothing else, it illustrates that as late as 1998, there was at least the perception among academics at other universities that USM was rife with "inbreeding".

I'd also add that the individual at USM who advised my son that the non-hire policy was easily circumvented was then a dean, now a top level administrator; he spoke with some authority (or so it seemed). In fact, he went so far as to assure my son that he'd "see to it" that he later secured a teaching position at USM, should he choose to accept the fellowship then being offered.

I think I've said all that I can safely disclose here without placing my son at risk, as he did accept the USM offer, and is now laboring over his dissertation. He's teaching at an out-of-state university, where he's very comfortable, so the issue of returning to USM as a faculty member is of course passe.

I'd be happy to provide you with more detailed information privately, if you think it would serve any constructive purpose. I'm pretty sure I can recall the name of the Ole Miss prof who made the comments concerning USM, as he called me at home on a couple of occasions in an attempt to use me to sway my son's decision.

Again, thanks for taking the time from your research to clarify the USM hiring policy.

Regards,
Austin Eagle

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Jim Hollandsworth
"Here is some background on the policy against hiring faculty with terminal degrees from USM."

Thanks, Dr. Hollandsworth. I'm sure you had plenty of more important (and more interesting) things to do than write that very informative post. But I'm glad you took the time to do it.

When I began my doctoral program at USM over 20 years ago, this "rule" was never explained to me. I don't think it would have changed my decision to attend USM, however. At the time, there were only a handful of doctoral programs in my major anywhere in the U.S.

Life goes on & I can't say I've been disappointed with the results. As I've posted before, I'm thankful that I do not work at the University of Southern Mississippi.

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Invictus
"

I'm thankful that I do not work at the University of Southern Mississippi.

"

Uhhh, in light of recent developments, believe me, so is my son.

AE

Date: May 18, 2004

To everyone-

Thanks for the kind words and especially the thoughts, which may have not been posted.

I think of myself as a resource person and have no desire to dig up old grudges. As my wife, Susan, reminds me, you’ve got to move on. Nevertheless, I am still very interested in what is happening down in the ‘burg, and so I follow this web site closely. When I choose to post, it is not out of anger. More specifically, I would not take the time to follow up on Ms./Mr. Eagle’s comments if I did not value what she/he said and admire her/him for saying it. We have all been there (in regard to USM bashing by people at Ole Miss and State), and I always considered it part of the constant challenge to get people to see just how good USM was. USM has always been better than its reputation, especially in-state. I know that; you know that. Consequently, I also know how hard it is for those of you out there who feel the same way to see Thames and his cronies catapult this university into the bog from which it was trying to emerge.

NO QUARTER!

Jim Hollandsworth

Date: May 18, 2004

quote:
Originally posted by: Jim Hollandsworth
"To everyone- Thanks for the kind words and especially the thoughts, which may have not been posted. I think of myself as a resource person and have no desire to dig up old grudges. As my wife, Susan, reminds me, you’ve got to move on. Nevertheless, I am still very interested in what is happening down in the ‘burg, and so I follow this web site closely. When I choose to post, it is not out of anger. More specifically, I would not take the time to follow up on Ms./Mr. Eagle’s comments if I did not value what she/he said and admire her/him for saying it. We have all been there (in regard to USM bashing by people at Ole Miss and State), and I always considered it part of the constant challenge to get people to see just how good USM was. USM has always been better than its reputation, especially in-state. I know that; you know that. Consequently, I also know how hard it is for those of you out there who feel the same way to see Thames and his cronies catapult this university into the bog from which it was trying to emerge. NO QUARTER! Jim Hollandsworth "

This is exactly why I spend my free time (what little I have, believe it or not) working on ridding USM of the likes of SFT as its non-leader. USM deserves better!

NO QUARTER!